#16
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I think there is some confusion in the terminology here. There is a difference between planing and leveling. A fretboard should be leveled before tension and frets are added. Relief is set by compression fretting or adjustable truss rod. Planing, the way I understand Hot Vibrato to mean, was to shape the fretboard, or shave areas of the fretboard, so that under tension there is the correct relief. I don't know what you mean when you say, "I plane the fretboard until it's perfect". I also don't see the need to plane the fretboard to correct the relief of a guitar that has an adjustable truss rod. I would hate to see my guitar's fretboard thinned at the nut and body join as a means to adjust the relief.
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......Mike Last edited by 00-28; 06-19-2016 at 01:48 PM. |
#17
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Because factory-built guitars' fingerboards always have (often gross) irregularities that can either be planed off of the surface of the fingerboard, or off the surface of the frets after they're installed. I choose to do the former. And if you don't do it under simulated string tension, you're only guessing as to how the neck will react under 200 lbs of string tension. Last edited by Hot Vibrato; 06-19-2016 at 04:09 PM. |
#18
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Regarding your suggestion of correcting bow by fretting with taller frets and filing the difference from the surface, I think that would work in minor cases, but I suppose if one were opposed to planing the board, I would consider compression fretting to at least be a means to help change the plane of the board in their favor. I was listening to the Blues Creek tutorial earlier while working on a stratocaster refret, and it occurs to me that I sometimes apply the principles of compression fretting - in particular on strats and tele's, etc. with finished maple boards. Sometimes it's best not to plane these because of the finish work involved and the obvious loss of originality. But sometimes these necks exhibit the "ski ramp" at the end of the neck. When it's severe, the only choice is to plane the board, but in more minor cases, I can get away with fitting the frets at the upper portion of the neck more tightly, and it really makes a difference in the amount of kick at the end of the neck. So I guess I do sometimes do "compression fretting" after all. In the case of an unfinished ebony or rosewood fingerboard, I can't imagine not leveling the fingerboard at all, but I can imagine some scenarios where it would be beneficial if I could use compression fretting to accurately and predictably alter the plane of a board. It's the "accurately and predictably" part that discourages me. Last edited by Hot Vibrato; 06-19-2016 at 04:05 PM. |
#19
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"Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest." --Paul Simon |
#20
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A few notes:
1. Planing has been used for years. I remember a fantastic small industry that developed in New York city around the non-adjustable Martin neck. Towards the end of the sixties the East Coast artists needed necks that could be used for string bending and light playing. Guys like Maury Muehleisen who played lead for Jim Croce wanted REALLY low action with bending ability. The cottage industry was bringing the actions down by planing them. 2. There are situations that can only be handled with planing, such as a compound bow. A compound bow exists when the treble and bass sides aren't bowed by the same amount. With this condition you can had a back bow on the bass side and perfect relief on the treble side. I'm not aware of fret wire that allows differential compression so planing is the only option. 3. I've heard the arguments that a neck that is planed can become unstable. You'd have to take a lot of neck material for that to happen. In logic, reducing all conditions to the extreme is called the argument reductio ad absurdum, and is considered a classic fallacy. I've got a forty-year-old Gibson Les Paul that had a compound bow. It was planed twenty years ago and the work hasn't made it rubbery or unstable. In fact, it has played better since the planing than it ever did before. The same with a forty-year-old Conn dread with a Nato neck that was planed twenty years ago. A good tech or luthier will tell you whether or not the procedure will remove too much material. Choose a good workman and he'll keep you within bounds. Bob
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"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' " Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website) |
#21
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Purists are so full of it, they have no concept of whats required to achieve a good playable guitar, every guitar is different every guitar requires a different approach.
There is no right or wrong way, its what way works for you. Luthiers are paid for there knowledge / wisdom and experience in said matters, what takes others days and weeks of trolling forums, takes seconds for us to access under a good eye. Steve
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Cole Clark Fat Lady Gretsch Electromatic Martin CEO7 Maton Messiah Taylor 814CE |
#22
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I'd love to hear your thoughts on the subject, by the way! |
#23
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.........Mike |
#24
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If a customer was silly enough to use someone like this, then they are matched for each other. We are in a society where social media rules, it takes almost no effort to look up the person you are going to use and read reviews on them. To this end, a wary customer will look at who endorses that luthier, are they endorsed from a manufacturer, do they work for multiple guitar stores (not one), there are lots of questions that should be asked before taking it to be repaired. Steve
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Cole Clark Fat Lady Gretsch Electromatic Martin CEO7 Maton Messiah Taylor 814CE |
#25
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These days, most of my leveling is done near the body joint to flatten the area after a neck reset. On many vintage Martins and Gibsons, the necks have more taper in thickness than modern necks, and a bit of reduction at the body is less of an issue than it is in the first position. Quote:
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This is not a particularly new technique, just a variation on heat pressing. IMHO, the advantage is that it is more predictable and more reliable. Quote:
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Last edited by John Arnold; 06-19-2016 at 09:35 PM. |
#26
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Thanks for posting this, by the way. It cleared up some questions about the subject. The most important thing I learned is that in the method presented, the board is planed. It's planed with zero relief without string tension, and the fret compression is merely to induce a slight back-bow so that the neck has the proper amount of relief under string tension. My impression of the process was that no effort is made to correct the irregularities in the plane of the neck, and you are relying solely on compression for this, which would indeed be imprecise and crude. This changes everything about my perception of the process. It also changes everything regarding the opinions of those who object to my methods: Luthiers who do compression fretting plane their boards. They leave theirs flat, and use compression to induce the .007"-009" amount of back-bow which is the typical measurement of a rod-less Martin with no string tension. I dress the back-bow into the board by planing under simulated string tension. The difference in the amount of material they remove vs. the amount of material I remove is just a few thousandths of an inch - significantly less than the thickness of a high E string. Anyone who would complain about that, I would not want for a customer.
Read my above post. There's about a .007"-.009" difference in material removed between what you deem is the proper way, and the way I do it. Is that really a deal breaker for anyone in the market for a vintage guitar, when the work is otherwise clean and precise? Without pulling the frets, I contend that nobody could possibly even distinguish whether one of my refrets is a compression job or not. Quote:
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Sadly, my business is not far off from your above description, but add ten years of training under a master repaiman prior to going into business for myself. I'm not in a shack, but my shop is modest. I don't advertise my business, I'm not listed in the phone book, and I have no website. I don't do warranty work, and I don't do work for stores anymore (although several stores often refer customers to me without taking a commission). You won't find any information about me or my work on the web. ALL of my business is through word of mouth referrals from other happy customers, and they are all people I know, and their friends and acquaintances. This has many advantages. The first and most obvious is that since I work at my home, the customers are pre-screened by my own clientele. And they all seem to have nice guitars. I spend my days at my shop in my home working on Gibsons, Martins, Taylors, Fenders, Guilds, etc., and I hardly ever have to work on crappy guitars. This is the saving grace of my business. Because of my word of mouth business model, virtually every new customer I have has already seen my work, or they've spoken to someone who was satisfied enough to recommend me. IME, good repairmen are in such demand, all a repairman needs to do to get business is to do exceptional work, and word catches on. |
#27
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My point is that with the influx of google searching / forums and online stores such as stewmac, too many people with too much ambition and not enough smarts and no hand skills actually open a repair shop with very little to no knowledge. They are winging it. Its fine to ask advice on forums and be guided in doing your own home repairs, but if a commercial enterprise needs to ask questions on how to do something via a forum for a paid job, then, clearly we have some issues, first issue, if your a commercial enterprise why are you asking how to do this ????, maybe you really should not be doing it. This is one of the issues with trades that require no governmental regulation or intervention to license. Steve
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Cole Clark Fat Lady Gretsch Electromatic Martin CEO7 Maton Messiah Taylor 814CE |
#28
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One of the criteria which I apply when deciding whether I can trust the advice of internet gurus is their ability to differentiate between "their" - "there" , and "your" - "you're".
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#29
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Knowing how to seamlessly remove a fretboard from a guitar and refit it with no evidence of how it's been done has very little to do with the ability to distinguish the difference between there and their. However you go for it, feel free to get your advice on building and repairing guitars from someone that can differentiate there from their as the point of reference to being an expert in the field of Lutherie.
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Cole Clark Fat Lady Gretsch Electromatic Martin CEO7 Maton Messiah Taylor 814CE Last edited by mirwa; 06-20-2016 at 07:36 AM. |
#30
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In fact I'd be more wary of someone that never asked for advice, claimed to know everything. .. The best way of judging a repairman's work is through referral and previous work. There's no crystal ball that can tell us whether a new job will come out right or not. The hope is that the luthier's application of his cumulative knowledge leads to a good job. Luthiery is one of the last bastions of freedom from governmental regulation we have. If you really think that's the answer then maybe a relocation to Venezuela may be in order! ;-) |