Advice on Black Walnut Finish: Stain??

[ChuckEzell]

I've been working on my second build and I need some advice. This new project is back and sides will be Flamed Black Walnut with a Cedar Top.

So, the color of this walnut looks a bit gray and faded. It darkens when it's wet but i'm wondering if I should apply a stain to darken it or will it end up giving me the rich walnut color with just a french polish finish?





I am planning on adding tortise binding. Any advice on staining before the binding or after?

Any input would be appreciated. I'm still learning and loving this work.

[Big Band Guitar]

I sometimes work with black walnut repairing furniture. Staining it in my opinion would be a mistake. I like to use ruby or garnet shellac on black walnut.

[ChuckEzell]

OK, I've seen posts where folks talk about eliminating the gray by using a mild brown stain to start and sand it after with a light coat of shellac. Then coming back over it with something like Danish Oil to darken it first then coming back with an amber lacquer to give it some depth.

Whatever I do I'd like to make sure I don't mask the flamed wood. Honestly not even sure i'm using the right terms here but I'd like it to be rich with the proper depth that flamed walnut should have. I can only see glimmers of how rich it could be when it's wet.

[IndianHillMike]

Do you still have any cut-offs from the back/sides? I'd pore fill and french polish a small section of that before making any decisions!

[ChuckEzell]

I do have some cut-off. That's a good idea. - thanks @IndianHill

*If* I do any staining... should I be concerned about celluloid, tortoise binding before or after the stain?

If I end up NOT needing to stain then I've saved work for sure and binding would be my next step.

--thanks @BigBand
I like the garnet shellac idea...i'll look into that. It seems like that would provide the color casting to correct that gray color it has now.

[Mark Hatcher]

I would recommend using unbleached shellac flakes for your french polish. when mixed it looks like coffee but, it is quite transparent and brings out the figure as it soaks in. It will darken it a bit and and bring up the brown. Plus you'll have the advantage of a harder, more durable finish.

On another note, I had discovered really old Walnut tends to have much richer color and I worked hard to find old wood. I have since found that air dried Walnut also has more browns. Currently I'm thinking the air drying has more effect than age (the old wood was probably air dried). I believe kiln drying may gray the wood.

Mark

[Bruce Sexauer]

I believe that kiln drying kills some of the life in American Black walnut. But the worst thing is to use waterborne finish. As long as you use a “oil” based finish, it’ll look better than you might guess. At the very least, seal with shellac equivalent.

[Tim McKnight]

I don’t generally stain wood as I prefer to leave it natural. I also prefer a clear finish that sets on top of the wood instead of one that penetrates and usually has damping effects.

Always finish after binding. Let’s say that you did stain the wood prior to binding or possibly used a sealer that imparts some slight stain, when you scrape bindings flush you will scrape to expose bare wood. Or you might expose bare wood by sanding through your sealer or stain and If you would proceed on with a clear top coat finish your end product will look like a spotted blotchy mess.

[ChuckEzell]

Thanks @Tim, it hadn't occurred to me that I would absolutely scrape it off. Great point - so binding is my next step then finishing.

On the finish then it's sounding like my best bet is to go with a shellac and ideally NOT stain. That's what I was hoping for and i'm like the idea of a garnet or unbleached shellac finish.

The stains I'm more familiar with are the "Old Masters" brand, oil based as they are much easier to apply and work with. But if the shellac will bring out the flaming of the wood that's what I want (obviously ).

Having said all that I have been planning on doing the grain fill with "AquaCoat". Any caution here if i'm not going with a stain? Maybe skipping the early effort of the french polish grain fill steps hopefully?

[Tony Burns]

Walnut will get darker in time ( hard to say how long - but it will ) , wouldnt stain it in a a million years -!
when your thinking about edge binding -have you ever considered fancy flame maple - might look good on a walnut guitar
-thou my Colby Horton has a rosewood back and sides its flame maple binding is gorgeous -
plastic just looks cheap on a gorgeous set of wood like yours.

[Tim McKnight]

We go to great lengths to dry our wood to an acceptable level (6-8%MC) before building with it. It doesn’t make sense to me to use a water based product and add more moisture to wood we worked so hard to dry out. Besides most water based finishes are too soft and also impart an unnatural bluish hue.

[ChuckEzell]

Hmm... excellent point @Tim - I hadn't thought about that. So, I should be looking at either the full French Polish end to end or find a better pore filler. The epoxy I see being used seems like a lot of cleanup and toxic, honestly it seems a bit synthetic too?


@Tony I had thought about doing something like flamed koa or maple that provided that kind of contrast. I used flamed Koa with my first project was an old parlor guitar that was in pieces. It was cracked up from top to bottom. I don't know how old but given what I had to go on (body, build and brand) I'd say it was early 1900 (Washington Brand made by Harwood), maybe 1920s.

Anyway that little guy was Brazilian Rosewood with a spruce top. Bad shape and very thin on both top and bottom; really brittle. I ended up having to rebuild it learning every step of the way and making a lot of mistakes.

I digress... on *that* rebuild I used flamed Koa on the binding with black purfling. Compared to all the posts I've seen you guys put up here mine is a very, very crude effort. Being a beginner i'm making all the mistakes and learning from you guys.

Very crude final effort in all it's cleated glory. But that Koa binding is a nice contrast.

[runamuck]

I've been using walnut for over 30 years. The grey will go away with time and with most walnut will be replaced with subtle red and yellow tones. If you stain it, you'll forever kill the beauty and prevent the changes it will naturally make.

[ChuckEzell]

thanks @runamuck glad I posted this question. I've been trolling these forums for quite a while; learning a lot. Appreciate all the valuable input.

[Otterhound]

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

I would recommend using unbleached shellac flakes for your french polish. when mixed it looks like coffee but, it is quite transparent and brings out the figure as it soaks in. It will darken it a bit and and bring up the brown. Plus you'll have the advantage of a harder, more durable finish.

On another note, I had discovered really old Walnut tends to have much richer color and I worked hard to find old wood. I have since found that air dried Walnut also has more browns. Currently I'm thinking the air drying has more effect than age (the old wood was probably air dried). I believe kiln drying may gray the wood.

Mark

Back in the day , it was common practice to sink walnut logs in water for a year or so . This was done to leech the dark heartwood coloring into the white sapwood . Modern commercial kiln operations use a different process to the same end .
The result of this is a lack of definition in the natural varied coloring in walnut .
Although I have kilned any walnut , I am told that dehumidification kilns do not do this .
I am currently processing a walnut that is very different from the others that I have done . It is difficult to explain but easy to see . This is what it looks like at this time .

I am farther along , but this is right after splitting sections into wedges . It has black stripes instead of the grays and reds etc. that are typical here .
As it dries , the wood becomes a more consistent brown , but the striping will come out when finished .
I agree with not staining , but I do disagree with it getting darker over time . Walnut typically bleaches out to a more mellow brown over time and exposure to light .
If you do choose to stain , the right stain will make it almost indistinguishable from mahogany .
Drying to 6-8% moisture is important for gaining stability .
After that , wood will acclimate to it's environment . If your shop is kept at 38% , that is where the wood will head once there .
It is common practice to wet wood when bending it , some more than others .
Using a water based finish will tend to raise the grain a bit , but that shouldn't harm anything . Nothing a little sanding won't take care of . I know that some will wet their wood slightly before applying finish on purpose to knock down the grain . Of course , it is allowed to dry afterwards .
Sand paper opens the grain . If you use planes and scrapers instead , I was told that the grain will not be opened . I have this on good authority , Dale Bartholomew .
Should there be disagreement on this , I welcome the input
Nice looking box .