UPDATE: K&K or J&J or Element or Donner?

[HogsNRoses]

UPDATE: I tried the Donner and K&K. Recordings of the Donner DSS-3 and K&K attached.

Has anyone tried the Donner, K&K, J&J, and/or Element? I’d like to try a piezo-only solution instead of the Anthem in my J45 Studio. Unfortunately, I broke the volume control cover to the Sonitone while removing it, and I didn’t like it anyway. I build preamps as a hobby, so making either the Element or the K&K sound perfectly natural is easy.

Have other people had success with the Donner discs or the J&J compared to the K&K?

Update: Recording of the K&K in the J45:



Recording of the Donner in the J45:



Ordinarily I'd use the same song for both recordings, but the difference is big enough to hear anyway. I'm keeping the K&K, but (staying positive) the Donner had a nice brightness and sounded good through the speaker. It also has good options for installing it in your guitar and tailoring it to your needs.

[Mandobart]

I've used both K&K and JJB. I've ended up installing JJB's in a couple dozen instruments. They work fine, last over 12 years (so far) and provide good plugged in sound when paired with an impedance matching preamp or DI, without impacting the acoustic sound. I couldn't detect any difference between K&K and JJB besides the cost.

There are hundreds of posts to read through on these sound board piezoelectric transducers (SBT's) here on the AGF.

[Goat Mick]

I’ve used JJB pickups in several guitars and actually prefer it to K&K. Very clean and natural sound and the JJB pickups don’t seem to be quite as picky with impedance matchups.

[HogsNRoses]

OK, thanks for the info. Looking back through old posts, some people noted that the JJB has lower output. Do you have to add lots of gain to bring the JJB up to a normal level?

[Gordon Currie]

In my measurement years ago, it seemed to average about 6 dB less. Not a big deal.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

In my measurement years ago, it seemed to average about 6 dB less. Not a big deal.

Yikes! Six db is a LOT in my figuring...

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by HogsNRoses

OK, thanks for the info. Looking back through old posts, some people noted that the JJB has lower output. Do you have to add lots of gain to bring the JJB up to a normal level?

THIS TOPIC has my comments on the differences I noted between the JJB and K&K Pure Mini pickup.

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

Yikes! Six db is a LOT in my figuring...

Well, 1 dB can only be heard under controlled conditions.

3 dB is considered the minimum noticeable change for the average (non-audio engineer) person.

10 dB change will be experienced as twice/half as loud.

The perceived volume difference was more than barely noticeable and less than double (or half). It was significant enough to need to adjust the gain staging.

[fwphoto]

As a long time K&K enthusiast I've been super impressed with the James May Ultra Tonic conversion of a K&K. Just had the K&K on my OM-21 converted & it's flat-out better in every way. I'd check out their standard Ultra Tonic if I were looking for a new pickup. It's just a terrific piece of kit!

Frank

[HogsNRoses]

Thanks, everyone for your help. The 6dB measurement is super helpful. I agree 6dB is noticeable but certainly easy to work with. The Tillman preamp, for example, has about 6dB of gain. That's a doubling of voltage:

http://www.till.com/articles/GuitarPreamp/

TLDR: You'd have to modify the Tillman schematic for acoustic, especially with a K&K or JJB. The pulldown resistor should be 1M, and it would be best to daisy-chain two of them because the Tillman inverts the phase. On one stage, you can add a 15nF film capacitor in parallel with the 2.2K resistor to add some brightness, the specific value depending on the K&K installation.

More TLDR: I tried the JJB in both of my Furches, but failed. I think the sensors were too big for that Furch D24 bridge plate. I ruined one sensor pulling it out, and eventually tossed the JJB. I installed K&K successfully in two other guitars.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by HogsNRoses

OK, thanks for the info. Looking back through old posts, some people noted that the JJB has lower output. Do you have to add lots of gain to bring the JJB up to a normal level?

Hi HNR

The JJBs do have lower output, which means they need a cleaner preamp. Baggs Venue, Fishman Platinum Stage or Pro, Raven, DTAR Solstice, Headway, FireEye & Grace all have low enough noise floors to provide clean preamplification to do the job.

The JJBs sensors each are 15mm versus 12.5 with the K&K sensors…if the guitar's bridge plate is too small they will be an issue. Some OM, and parlors sizes have very small bridge plates.

I had JJBs installed by a qualified tech (the one everybody uses in town) and compared it to the K&Ks in my guitars. It was substantially quieter. The tone was workable.

If you are putting it in a sub-$500 guitar it's fine.

Both companies take care of customers, and one builds and services pickups, mics and preamps for a lot of specific instruments, and even builds custom pickups for unusual instruments (there is a forum member with a K&K custom built 6 sensor rig for his 8 string guitars).

My take is when I play, my sound represents me. I'm not worrying about saving $50 on my $500-1000 amplification rig (including pickup, preamp, amp) in my $3000-10,000 guitars.

[HogsNRoses]

Update: K&K installed in two Furches. Donner in the J45.

I figured out why the JJB did not work in the Furch. The Furches have an extra wood plate for the string holes, and the difference in height makes the gluing surface very small.

Donner DSS-3 thoughts: I like the brightness and they sound good in a sound system. They are quiet and if I used the instrument input on a basic amp or mixer, I would have to turn down the microphones to balance with vocals. Because of the level, I decided to replace it with a K&K even before I heard a recording of the Donner.

K&K thoughts: They sound fantastic in a sound system, and they have a wide soundstage. Through a sound system, they beat the Lyric/Anthem.

Recorded, the K&K doesn't sound as good as the Lyric, which is nearly as good as an external microphone only with a narrower soundstage.

Here are comparisons. The Furch is not as bright as the J45 in real life, so please discount the lack of brightness. I may have also used a different pick:

K&K:


Donner:

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by fwphoto

As a long time K&K enthusiast I've been super impressed with the James May Ultra Tonic conversion of a K&K. Just had the K&K on my OM-21 converted & it's flat-out better in every way. I'd check out their standard Ultra Tonic if I were looking for a new pickup. It's just a terrific piece of kit!

Frank

I'm planning on doing this conversion in the near future on my K&K-equipped HD-28V.

I have a JJB in my D-2832 Shenandoah, and the main difference I've found between it and the K&K is that the output level is significantly lower.