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Old 07-13-2019, 06:45 PM
kaspforeva kaspforeva is offline
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Default A Question on Laminate

I have a question. When did luthiers start using laminate in the construction of their guitars?
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Old 07-13-2019, 07:18 PM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaspforeva View Post
I have a question. When did luthiers start using laminate in the construction of their guitars?
Good question. If I knew, I'd tell you. I suspect it is a lot further back than most of us would think.
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Old 07-13-2019, 07:23 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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It goes way WAY back.

"Traces of laminated wood have been found by archaeologists in the tombs of the pharaohs. The Chinese shaved wood and glued it together more than a thousand years ago."

If it was being used in other applications, I'm sure instrument makers were using it as well.
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Old 07-13-2019, 07:35 PM
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Old 07-13-2019, 07:49 PM
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I am pretty sure Ervin Somogyi popularized the idea into steel string luthiery-- Jason Kostal can confirm.
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:08 PM
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It would help to clarify your question just a little bit. The word laminate conjures up plywood for most folks. What luthiers are doing is using double and triple sides (in some cases) to stiffen the rims to allow (in theory) the back and top to vibrate more freely, like a snare drum. These are solid pieces of wood, bent to shape, and then glued to one another, which by definition is lamination, but is not the common definition that most people think of. I prefer calling it double sides just to avoid confusion, even if gluing those two sides together is by definition, laminating.
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Old 07-13-2019, 08:27 PM
vintage40s vintage40s is offline
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Originally Posted by TomB'sox View Post
... These are solid pieces of wood, bent to shape, and then glued to one another, which by definition is lamination, but is not the common definition that most people think of...
I thought laminated guitar sides were 3-ply -- a central layer of cheap wood with pretty tone wood glued to each side before being bent.
Are you saying they are 2-ply -- two layers of tone wood glued to each other after being bent? That sounds more expensive and worse for tone.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:48 PM
stormin1155 stormin1155 is offline
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Originally Posted by vintage40s View Post
I thought laminated guitar sides were 3-ply -- a central layer of cheap wood with pretty tone wood glued to each side before being bent.
Laminate used in most budget guitars is as you describe, thin outside layers of nice tone wood with some mystery wood sandwiched in between. But that's not always the case. My '73 Yamaki and a couple of my Yamahas from that era use what are clearly three layers of spruce. Their tone rivals my solid wood guitars.
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:56 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaspforeva View Post
I have a question. When did luthiers start using laminate in the construction of their guitars?
It depends whether you're talking about guitar manufacturers or hand builders making custom guitars.

The original, independent Epiphone company (a major competitor to Gibson at the time,) started using high quality wood laminates for some of their instruments quite some time ago, probably in the early 1930's. They pioneered the use of glueing thin layers of wood together and pressing them into an arched shape at the same time in a large industrial steam press purpose-built for the job.

This was not cheapo plywood with some layer of spongey trash wood in the middle, but three paper thin layers of high quality hardwood, just like what Godin does now with its solid cedar topped Seagull guitars with laminated cherry backs and sides. I'm pretty sure that Taylor is also using the same process for their "layered wood" instruments.

I'm fairly certain that Epiphone used solid spruce guitar tops and arched them the same way, in a steam press for the tops. So far as I'm aware they didn't hand carve their archtop guitars' tops the way Gibson did or use laminated tops.

I'm not an expert on pre-war Epiphones, though, and don't know for certain about the tops.

Epiphone had good archtop guitar sales with this production technique, but where they commanded a huge segment of the market was with stand up basses. This was during the Big Band era, and traveling orchestras like Count Basie's played all over the country. It was difficult to keep an all-solid wood bass in tune because the wood would expand and contract with each different climate zone, so Epiphone's innovations were met with an enthusiastic response from traveling musicians.

Remember, this was before the electric bass guitar had been invented, so there was a ready market for those instruments.

On the basses, they were all laminated woods, no solid wood tops.

Another famous guitar company that made instruments using laminated woods was Selmer. Selmer guitars were used and endorsed by the great Django Reinhardt, and have become the guitar style of choice for musicians who play in that style:



Selmer-style Gitane Gypsy Jazz guitar

All of those original Selmers had solid tops and laminated backs and sides. The laminated woods contributed to the focus and projection of those guitars, and using them was a deliberate design choice.

As for when high dollar handbuilders started using laminates, I first started hearing about classical guitars being built with laminated sides in the late 1980's. I have a longtime friend who's been building classical guitars since before then, and I'm sure he'll know a more precise date. But he lives a few time zones away and it's too late to call him now.

But late 1980's is when I recall first hearing about them.

Hope this helps.


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Old 07-14-2019, 12:51 AM
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I've owned Gibson ES-165, Guild & K. Yairi that were lam' b/s, and they were killer guitars. Maton is another company that uses lam's extensively, and they don't take a back seat either.

Gibson had the ES-175 as far back as '49 I think. Somogyi was born in '44?

My K. Yairi is an '84 lam' b/s, I owned a lam' 78, and Kazuo had already been experimenting for years. I think of him as a pioneer, certain not first, but I've no clue who was actually first.
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Last edited by Blind Dog; 07-14-2019 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Forgot to answer op question.
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Old 07-14-2019, 12:52 AM
colder colder is offline
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Gibson was using laminate at least by 1950 when the es-175 came along.
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Old 07-14-2019, 08:13 AM
Rpt50 Rpt50 is online now
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Anyone with with wood-working experience building anything (not just guitars--anything) knows that "laminate" (layered) construction is going to be stronger and more stable than solid (non layered) construction. If I didn't learn this from my dad, I'm sure it was taught as early as 7th grade wood shop (ha ha this was back in a time when Americans actually built and fixed things themselves). Since the primary sound of the guitar is coming from the top, and the reflections from the inner surface layer of the back and sides, it seems to me that laminate would be much superior as a construction technique if you want a stable, long-lasting base for the top. Solid wood just can't compare.

Somebody referenced an academic publication a while back testing the notion that guitar players could distinguish back and side material in a double-blind situation (they could not). I suspect that all the fine guitars we love could be easily built and sound just as great with a laminate back and sides, but it's public perception and marketing that keeps solid wood in the game.
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Old 07-14-2019, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage40s View Post
I thought laminated guitar sides were 3-ply -- a central layer of cheap wood with pretty tone wood glued to each side before being bent.
Are you saying they are 2-ply -- two layers of tone wood glued to each other after being bent? That sounds more expensive and worse for tone.
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The OP was questioning what some luthiers do which I took to mean individual luthiers not companies such as Yamaha since they were brought up.

Double sides are two pieces of nice woods, often a highly figured wood which is harder to bend for the outside (they are made thinner because they will be paired with the second wood for the final thickness and therefore being thinner are easier to bend) and like a mahogany or spanish cedar or even Maple for the inside layer. It is more expensive, but it helps with tone, but not like you might think. Sides contribute very little and in my opinion, nothing to the tone of a guitar in terms of contribution due to what wood they are, so you definitely don't lose tone or the world's top luthiers like Somogyi and Kostal would not be doing it. The double sides change tone in a structural manner only, ie. by making the construct stiffer. I have two being built for me right now from different luthiers and both will have double sides.

The way you were thinking about it was why I said in my first post that we needed to be clear what we were talking about when we use the general term of lamination to be sure we are discussing apples to apples.
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Last edited by TomB'sox; 07-14-2019 at 11:31 AM.
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