The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Show and Tell

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 10-31-2006, 11:47 AM
Bern's Avatar
Bern Bern is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 10,736
Default

Here is a source for SD cards. Good price...
http://www.flash-memory-store.com/2g...e-digital.html
and another in a store near you
__________________
There are still so many beautiful things to be said in C major...
Sergei Prokofiev
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-31-2006, 11:57 AM
astrummer's Avatar
astrummer astrummer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Holland MI
Posts: 2,482
Default

Pretty good value here as well....

http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Memory...817073-2284853
__________________
A Strummer

"Let's lute the city", said the minstrels.

Oftentimes the only result I get from a thought experiment is a messed up lab.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-31-2006, 12:06 PM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 38,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by astrummer View Post
...Any thoughts on using this as a regular microphone into a PA? Would the stereo effect enhance the sound?
Hi AS...
Likely, not a good candidate. And you don't hear the ''stereo'' much from either the H4 or the Edirol 09 units.

There is a very slight amount of separation, but none an audience would benefit from. And these are hot little buggers (the internal mics). Live a hypercardioid mic would be a better choice - as in uber-uni-directional.

When you see live mics on PA setups, it is rarely in the X/Y or ORTF position. It is usually single mic at the neck and/or an additional one below the bridge.

Even if you are running a dedicated stereo rig with substantial amounts (as in vast quantities of) power and bi or tri amped cabinets, PA systems are much better run mono.

Not only are there separation issues (one side of the auditorium hearing only half the stereo signal) there are phase cancellation issues as well, where whole instruments or vocals disappear out of the mix. And unfortunately the two 'losers' in Stereo PA situations are the female singers and the acoustic guitarists.

Both tend to be diminished substantially in the house over in the headphones. Plenty of signal showing up at the board, just not making it out the speakers.

By the way, my Rode NT-3 mics do a fairly good job with live PA work. They are merely uni-directional, and hypersensitive, but if run without floor monitors and well behind the mains (like 12-20 feet behind the mains) they do a good job. I like the fact they can be run on simple 9 volt batteries without phantom in situations where the board cannot supply it.

I used one for a violin player recently in a large setting and she was 30 feet behind the mains and not in any monitor on that side of the stage (disconcerting to her) but it worked and sounded like a violin in the house without sticking it within an inch of her several thousand dollar instrument. It was also touchy when the stage volume dropped, because it then became more feedback prone because the board personel were tempted to turn her up in the house.
__________________
Larry J

Baby #01
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Full-size Full-Scale Baby #4

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued till a discussion turns silent doesn't mean you have convinced anyone…
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-31-2006, 12:40 PM
a-coustica a-coustica is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Paris / FRANCE
Posts: 205
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar
I like the fact they can be run on simple 9 volt batteries without phantom in situations where the board cannot supply it.
Hi ljguitar
That's the reason why the nt3 is very attractive to me.May you tell me if the quality is downgraded using it on 9V battery instead of 48V?
Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-31-2006, 12:46 PM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 38,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by a-coustica View Post
Hi ljguitar
That's the reason why the nt3 is very attractive to me.May you tell me if the quality is downgraded using it on 9V battery instead of 48V?
Thanks.
Hi A-C...
No. It uses the 9 volt battery to power it rather than the phantom power. Same response. You are just working under a 6 hour time limit before changing batteries.
__________________
Larry J

Baby #01
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Full-size Full-Scale Baby #4

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued till a discussion turns silent doesn't mean you have convinced anyone…
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-31-2006, 01:13 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 6,278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Even if you are running a dedicated stereo rig with substantial amounts (as in vast quantities of) power and bi or tri amped cabinets, PA systems are much better run mono.

Not only are there separation issues (one side of the auditorium hearing only half the stereo signal) there are phase cancellation issues as well, where whole instruments or vocals disappear out of the mix. And unfortunately the two 'losers' in Stereo PA situations are the female singers and the acoustic guitarists.
I have to disagree with these statements.

First, phase issues, such as the comb filtering effect, show up in mono mixes, not fully panned stereo mixes. This is why multiple source recordings are collapsed to mono, on a test basis, to see if any phase issues exist. You can't hear phase cancellation unless you are listening to a mono source, collapsed from two or more sources.

Second, stereo mixes do not usually contain tracks (or instruments) that are panned 100% left and/or right. Usually, the panning is much less. We hear in stereo. Using a PA to emulate that is a good thing, if done properly.

Third, why would female singers and acoustic guitarists be more prone to phase issues than any other instrument or vocalist? Whether phase issues arise does not depend on the instrument or vocalist, but on other factors independent of the source material.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-31-2006, 01:49 PM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 38,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
...I have to disagree with these statements.
...First, phase issues, such as the comb filtering effect, show up in mono mixes, not fully panned stereo mixes. This is why multiple source recordings are collapsed to mono, on a test basis, to see if any phase issues exist. You can't hear phase cancellation unless you are listening to a mono source, collapsed from two or more sources.
Hi SDR...
He asked specifically about the Zoom H4 being used for stereo live mic, and that rig is not going to be out of phase, or have comb issues of major proportions since it is a fixed X/Y pair of mics (X/Y is used so recordists won't encounter those issues).


Quote:
Second, stereo mixes do not usually contain tracks (or instruments) that are panned 100% left and/or right. Usually, the panning is much less. We hear in stereo. Using a PA to emulate that is a good thing, if done properly.
In an ideal world. I've encountered many groups panning live PAs with keys panned hard L-R, and guitar rigs as well.

Stereo, moderate or otherwise when in live PA situations can easily produce ''anomalies''. This is especially true of moving situations (different locations with mobile rigs).

We ran stereo PAs several years ago for months, because the artists were asking for us to - particularly guitarists with stereo pedals and keyboardists. They liked the way it ''felt'' when the chorus swept through the room - you know what I mean.

We kept running up against issues and consulted with a sound specialist who was a sound engineer (with an engineering degree type of engineer) that was running sound in both studio and live for a profession.

He pointed us back to mono and the ''anomalies'' (vocal and guitars disappearing) cleared up instantly. We were only moderately panning voices around the center to about mid-point of either side, and in relation to how they were standing on stage L-R. We were hard panning the guitar effects and keyboard rigs.

We are not discussing studio here, but live sound. Things in the ''real world'' (think mobile rigs in different settings every time) don't respond like studio work in a fixed environment.


Quote:
Third, why would female singers and acoustic guitarists be more prone to phase issues than any other instrument or vocalist? Whether phase issues arise does not depend on the instrument or vocalist, but on other factors independent of the source material.
First off, I'm a practicer not a theoretician.

I never asked the engineer/tech why those instruments and vocal ranges in particular were more prone to disappearing from the mix than bass guitars, keys or sopranos and tenors. But when I began describing the problem to him, he asked if the female vocalists and acoustic guitars were dropping in the mix disproportionate to levels indicated on the board, and that was exactly what we were encountering. He asked, ''You are running stereo aren't you?''

We said ''Yes.'' He said ''Run mono and they show back up in the mix.'' We tried it and he was correct.

Not one to give up (or give in) easily I asked him "Why?'' and he said there are phase cancellation issues with running stereo PA systems that frequently cause lower female voices and acoustic guitars to drop in the live mix...at least that's what I thought I heard him say. I was paying for his time and ideas, because mine didn't work.

I asked what other solutions there are to still allow running live stereo and his response was ''Stereo is for studio, mono works best live.''

We believed him. It worked.

Oh by the way, we solved the issue with the musicians by putting a pair of amps - one on either side of them - on the stage connected in Stereo with mics on each of them which were summed back to mono at the board. They stood between them ''feeling'' the sweeps and we happily mixed our sound.

So we don't lose the point of the topic, this thread is about the H4 recorder, and somebody making choices as to a mic for both live and recording applications crept in. While it's an interesting topic, as is stereo versus mono recording and PA work, it is straying a bit from the original focus of the thread. Perhaps if we choose to pursue this more, someone could start a new discussion to see who wants to discuss it more.
__________________
Larry J

Baby #01
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Full-size Full-Scale Baby #4

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued till a discussion turns silent doesn't mean you have convinced anyone…

Last edited by ljguitar; 10-31-2006 at 01:55 PM. Reason: more
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-31-2006, 02:20 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 6,278
Default

Thanks for the explanations. I was just calling into question your statements, as the physics involved yield different answers, whether live or in the studio.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-31-2006, 02:24 PM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 38,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
Thanks for the explanations. I was just calling into question your statements, as the physics involved yield different answers, whether live or in the studio.
Hi SDSR...
Hey...don't mind that at all.
__________________
Larry J

Baby #01
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Full-size Full-Scale Baby #4

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued till a discussion turns silent doesn't mean you have convinced anyone…
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-31-2006, 10:27 PM
javawhz javawhz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 131
Default

silly question perhaps but what kind of stand are you guys using for the H4, is it a regular camera tripod?
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 10-31-2006, 10:34 PM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 38,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by javawhz View Post
silly question perhaps but what kind of stand are you guys using for the H4, is it a regular camera tripod?
Hi JavaWhz...
Yup. Zoom includes a platform mount that cradles the Zoom H4, and it screws directly to a camera tripod mount and it has velcro straps to secure the Zoom.

I'll try to shoot and post a pic, but it is secure (lip on one end) and quick to mount and unmount the unit. I actually bought an inexpensive tripod for mine, and leave the mount on it.
__________________
Larry J

Baby #01
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Full-size Full-Scale Baby #4

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued till a discussion turns silent doesn't mean you have convinced anyone…
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11-01-2006, 03:51 PM
javawhz javawhz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 131
Default

thanks lj
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11-04-2006, 10:19 PM
Mismo's Avatar
Mismo Mismo is offline
just peeking....
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Union, NJ
Posts: 794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bern View Post
...out of the box.
I did two quick recordings (Please, forgive me for my sloppy playing )
Zoom H4 Test1 - I uploaded this to the computer, which is amazingly easy for a novice like myself, and normalized it. The H4 recording level ended up to -7db.
Zoom H4 Test2 - Again, I uploaded it, normalized it and added reverb on the computer (Can't wait to play this on my Kronbauer. The 000-28 just doesn't have enough sustain.)
I must say, I endorse this little rascal...
Hi Bern,

As usual, great picking! and also impressed with recording results of this 'little rascal." I just browsed through the features and specs of this device over the internet and if I'm not mistaken, you can plug in and use another condenser mic of your choice?

Have you tried doing this? If you have, could you kindly post another test?

And also, could the Zoom H4 condenser mics work simultaneously with another condenser plugged in or do they simply get overriden?

Would appreciate your thoughts on this! Thanks
__________________
George

"The Only Good Is Knowledge And The Only Evil Is Ignorance" -Socrates

2004 Taylor 514ce
Seagull S6+CW Folk


Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11-04-2006, 11:25 PM
sluggo's Avatar
sluggo sluggo is offline
Sod Buster
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
Sounds great Bern. I wish I played as sloppy as you!

My sentiments exactly. Sounds beautiful Bern. I'm really tempted with this piece. Since I still use tape...this looks like a good way to get my feet wet with some newer technology and achieve improved sound quality straight away. Thanks for sharing. Love you guitar playing!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 11-05-2006, 12:35 PM
a-coustica a-coustica is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Paris / FRANCE
Posts: 205
Default

Hi Bern (and other owners of H4)
Did you take a look at those informations?
http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/news/news146/index.php
http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/news/news147/index.php
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Show and Tell

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=