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  #61  
Old 06-17-2016, 09:01 AM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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Earl;

I really admire your rehab process. I think a lot of people would have just given up.

I've played the NS34ce. I thought it was a beautiful instrument and it played well. But as you note, it did not compete with the sound from a good classical. The closest I came to a cut-a-way nylon string guitar that did compete was a Takamine--but it was still not there.

The Blackbird nylon string Rider comes very close to classical tone and projection but does not give me the nut width or fret reach that I like and I was never comfortable with it even with a neck-up.

The Rainsong Parlor nylon is almost there but does not give me the fret reach I want. I have the Parlor and the Emerald X10-OSN. When I let others play the two guitars the consensus is that the Parlor may have better tone and projection but the Emerald has a sweeter neck and plays higher. I go back and forth between the two and have been unable to decide on which I would call the best.

John has been pretty consistent in his desire for a CF nylon string that would follow the traditional classical build and his ideal would settle the question as to whether a CF guitar could compete with a classical guitar. But his ideal would still leave unanswered the question of whether a cut-a-way and bevels can be added without negatively changing tone and project.

It's a challenge, one that I expect Rob to resolve after all the fine advice he's been getting on this thread. One might say he's hanging on by a thread. I suppose we might also say that he's being held back by a thread.
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  #62  
Old 06-17-2016, 10:15 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Thanks Evan. Giving up was never really an option. Not to be melodramatic, but playing guitar is a core aspect of my personality and a big part of what makes my life worthwhile. Without music, it would be hard to go on.

Since I thumb-over a lot to hit the sixth string for Piedmont blues and ragtime, the wide & flat classical neck does not work well for me. I would have to revise my playing style in a substantial way. Crossovers work fine though, but I have never invested in a really stellar one. I will continue to follow this thread, as it is getting quite interesting. If I ended up with nothing but CF guitars a few years down the road, I would be OK with that.

The only reason I sold the NS34 was that it would sit unplayed for large chunks of the year, and deserved better. It is getting serious love now from its new owner in Australia. I have even been known to put ball-end nylon strings on my old Silvertone on occasion. It is built for steel strings and is not a high-end guitar anyway, so that is a marginal option at best. But every once in a while, I really feel the need for nylon sound. Hopefully there won't be any more hand rehab in my future. [knock on carbon fiber for luck]
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  #63  
Old 06-17-2016, 05:28 PM
zhunter zhunter is offline
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Since someone asked:

50mm and flat. It is a nylon string guitar.

Why not put a pin bridge on it so you can use ball end strings...

I just sold the one and only 48mm-1 7/8" neck I'll ever own. I adapted but it felt cramped.

hunter
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  #64  
Old 06-18-2016, 08:54 AM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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Hunter;

Take a look at Sir Whale's latest thread--I think you'll like what you see.
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  #65  
Old 06-18-2016, 09:32 AM
zhunter zhunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Hunter;

Take a look at Sir Whale's latest thread--I think you'll like what you see.
My mistake. I thought this discussion was about folding travel guitars.

hunter
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  #66  
Old 06-18-2016, 12:21 PM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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Hunter;

No mistake, you are on topic. The Journey folding guitar has taken on a new medium and is now available in carbon fiber. One of the abiding subjects in the development of a new nylon string Journey has been nut width and your preference echoes the input from others.
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  #67  
Old 06-19-2016, 02:55 PM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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Rob;

Are you (or will you be) doing any customization? For example, could someone order a color other than what's listed on your site? Would two-tone coloration be possible? Is it possible to order a guitar that is completely one color?
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  #68  
Old 06-19-2016, 11:09 PM
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robailey robailey is offline
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Hi Evan,

We'll be doing more customization in '17, which is when this guitar will be coming out. Two-tone bursts should be ready at that time as well.

take care,
Rob
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  #69  
Old 06-20-2016, 11:44 AM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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Rob;

If you can find them, you might want to look at pictures of the CF guitars developed by Voyage Instruments (the French company that never made it). The VI guitars were high style with lots of flash. I thought they were pretty neat looking.
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  #70  
Old 06-20-2016, 02:30 PM
ac ac is offline
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  #71  
Old 06-20-2016, 03:11 PM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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Thank you AC. You are a remarkable digger of info and I appreciate all the material you bring the forum table. Tasty. Now Rob is going to have to reconsider all his preconceptions regarding coloration.
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  #72  
Old 06-27-2016, 06:56 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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From a performance perspective, the opposite of classical is casual, so this nebulous instrument is a nylon string casual guitar.

The definition of casual is,"without formality of style or manner." So what makes a guitar casual? It supports whatever style is most comfortable in the moment: standing with a strap, sitting on a stool, a couch, the end of a bed, a pillow on the floor, a tree stump in the forest, or a big rock on a beach, with the thumb behind the neck or hooked over the top, with fingers or a pick, acoustic or plugged in.

Then there's the issue of staying away from, "jack of all trades, master of none," and creating an instrument that facilitates stellar performance in a casual setting. The difference between playing with thumb behind the neck or hooked over the top is enough to deserve a 1mm difference in neck width. The difference between using fingers or a pick is enough to deserve a 2mm difference in string spacing at the saddle.

I play with a pick. My educated guess is that a 57mm saddle spacing is ideal for fingers, but I don't have to guess with a pick. 55mm is amazing. I may expand at the nut, from 41mm to 41.5, to restore some of the lost string spacing on the neck. Using my minimum 3.5mm fretboard edge gap, this expands the nut width to 48.5mm. I'm going to play more with the new saddle before changing the nut.

A 56mm saddle spacing is an example of "jack of all trades."
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  #73  
Old 07-05-2016, 03:20 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
I like Tom2's metric assessments (although I like 48.5mm better than 48mm--recognizing that this is a minor quibble).
What led you to 48.5mm? My experimental approach is leading me to the exact same number. While my current configuration of 41mm nut spacing and 55mm saddle spacing allows me to do everything that I can do on a steel string guitar, my 2 years of on-and-off playing of a classical caused me to develop a new technique that requires slightly wider string spacing. While I'm not ready to leave my current setup yet, I'm almost certain that I will prefer a 48.5mm nut with a 41.5mm string spacing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Tom2;

While we've led Rob to the ideal nut width and a slight fretboard radius, I am still curious about your preference in scale length. Beyond that, we might also discuss the pros and cons of a cut-a-way. Hopefully between us we can lead the Journey to a new-world nylon string guitar.
I would definitely like to address all of these in detail. Personally, I have a hierarchy of playability, and neck profile is next on my list. Also, because I use a pick, saddle radius is actually more significant than fretboard radius (think violin bow as tangent to bridge arc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Tom2;

I'm finding your findings fascinating. You are much more rigorous than I.

Of your findings, I find one contrary to my preference. I understand the extra projection brought to nylon strings with added tension; hard tension, extra hard tension and so forth. However, in going to hard tension strings I've found that the tonal qualities begin to resemble those found with steel strings. I am currently running through a variety of high tension strings and I am starting to think that some high tension strings are retaining normal tension nylon sound. I don't see how this can be, but then, there's a lot of things I have a hard time believing.
I'm not saying that I prefer high tension strings. I'm saying that reducing string spacing always requires a counterbalancing reduction in string height, to avoid accidental muting of adjacent strings. Lower string height then requires an increase in string tension to avoid fret buzz. With composite materials making their way into strings, something nice will show up soon. The important idea is to consider something higher than medium tension strings when voicing the body.
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  #74  
Old 07-06-2016, 03:39 AM
ac ac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
I like Tom2's metric assessments (although I like 48.5mm better than 48mm--recognizing that this is a minor quibble).

My favorite spec sheets show both metric and fraction measurements which allows the absurd and the not-absurd to co-exist.
so . . . . about a dash less than 1 233/256 inches seems about right?
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  #75  
Old 07-06-2016, 08:42 AM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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AC;

That sounds about right, thank you for the clarification.
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