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  #61  
Old 12-12-2013, 04:53 AM
new2guitar_eh new2guitar_eh is offline
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I wonder if any of the CF companies are following this thread, and more importantly if they are getting any value from it?
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  #62  
Old 12-12-2013, 05:27 AM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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Originally Posted by new2guitar_eh View Post
I wonder if any of the CF companies are following this thread, and more importantly if they are getting any value from it?
The CF companies are all small niche players probably happy producing for a dedicated smaller clientele. The exception might be Peavey CA which has a lot of mass marketing potential. It will be interesting to see if they market the product a little more. I really haven't seen them do that which makes me wonder if the profit margins are were they need to be? Also their commitment to further innovation?
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  #63  
Old 12-12-2013, 06:37 AM
skeeterbuck skeeterbuck is offline
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As a player who has never played a CF guitar, I like to try one, but never been in a music store where they were available.

That said, I would have to sound better to me that a traditional Gibson/Martin/Taylor for me to consider buying one. I know that "beauty is in thee eye of the beholder", and the CF guitars I've seen look rather industrial and ugly. Wood guitars have that natural organic look that blends well with the idea of making music as opposed to just making noise.
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  #64  
Old 12-12-2013, 08:46 AM
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Acousticado Acousticado is offline
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Originally Posted by skeeterbuck View Post
As a player who has never played a CF guitar, I like to try one, but never been in a music store where they were available.

That said, I would have to sound better to me that a traditional Gibson/Martin/Taylor for me to consider buying one. I know that "beauty is in thee eye of the beholder", and the CF guitars I've seen look rather industrial and ugly. Wood guitars have that natural organic look that blends well with the idea of making music as opposed to just making noise.
Really? Of course, you're entitled to your view, but it causes me to wonder if you've seen the range of offerings among the builders.

Below is my Emerald doubleneck. Perhaps the exposed CF weave is too "industrial" looking for your taste, but with Emerald, the finish almost has a 3D effect which is waaay cool. Imo, beyond its great looks, at 5 lbs., 3.5" thick, well-balanced and rock-solid, this guitar is but one example where CF does what wood does not do well at all. There are a range of finishes applied to CF guitars, including fine wood veneers fused with the CF. If you haven't seen many, I encourage you to look more closely.

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  #65  
Old 12-12-2013, 08:57 AM
jdinco jdinco is offline
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Wow...that is a beauty Tom!
I love a beautiful wood guitar, some are truly a work of art, but I feel the same about the CF guitars. For some reason I am enjoying playing the CF guitar right now a lot more than the wood ones. That could change next week though. Maybe.
It is extremely dry around here right now, the humidifier is using a lot of water, so it's nice to be able to leave the wood in the humidity room and the CF's out where I can play them when I want. I'm lucky.
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  #66  
Old 12-12-2013, 10:27 AM
skeeterbuck skeeterbuck is offline
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Originally Posted by Acousticado View Post
Really? Of course, you're entitled to your view, but it causes me to wonder if you've seen the range of offerings among the builders.

Below is my Emerald doubleneck. Perhaps the exposed CF weave is too "industrial" looking for your taste, but with Emerald, the finish almost has a 3D effect which is waaay cool. Imo, beyond its great looks, at 5 lbs., 3.5" thick, well-balanced and rock-solid, this guitar is but one example where CF does what wood does not do well at all. There are a range of finishes applied to CF guitars, including fine wood veneers fused with the CF. If you haven't seen many, I encourage you to look more closely.
That's nice to know.

I was just trying to address the concerns of the OP. Ted compared them price wise to a D-18. Unless the CF tone really floored me, I not going to pick one over a D-18.
I'm just one voice crying out in the wilderness.
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  #67  
Old 12-12-2013, 10:38 AM
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I have admittedly only seen a few and they looked subtle (black). I think seeing the above in a music store would really be off-putting and I'd revise my original answer to include aesthetics. That looks extremely unattractive to me. Sorry if that offends anyone.
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  #68  
Old 12-12-2013, 11:04 AM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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Unfortunate for carbon especially one like Tom's pictures just don't do the finish justice. The 3D effect doesn't come through. True of Rainsongs Black ice as well! pictures don't do it it needs to be in your hands.
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  #69  
Old 12-12-2013, 11:17 AM
Bowie Bowie is offline
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Originally Posted by Doubleneck View Post
Unfortunate for carbon especially one like Tom's pictures just don't do the finish justice. The 3D effect doesn't come through. True of Rainsongs Black ice as well! pictures don't do it it needs to be in your hands.
That's what puts me off, is the 3D look. Too flashy and already starting to become dated. The only ones I thought were ok looking were the ones that hid the carbon fiber. CF was really cool a few years ago when people were using it on cars, phone cases, etc. But it's played now and I think they'd do well to not emphasize it. Everyone has their own tastes though and I'm not putting down anyone who likes the CF look, I liked it at one time. I think wood grain more represents the nature of acoustic music, visually. Something feels disingenuous about the guitar above. Again, that's just me.
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  #70  
Old 12-12-2013, 11:27 AM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Bowie View Post
That's what puts me off, is the 3D look. Too flashy and already starting to become dated. The only ones I thought were ok looking were the ones that hid the carbon fiber. CF was really cool a few years ago when people were using it on cars, phone cases, etc. But it's played now and I think they'd do well to not emphasize it. Everyone has their own tastes though and I'm not putting down anyone who likes the CF look, I liked it at one time. I think wood grain more represents the nature of acoustic music, visually. Something feels disingenuous about the guitar above. Again, that's just me.
Visual taste is in the eye of the beholder, but the above guitar could not be reproduced in wood. CF because if it properties can produce instruments that wood just can't give you. Come to Ohio and I will give you a try with my wood Doubleneck, weights a ton and the bridge as of last week is starting to separate do to the tension of 18 strings.
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2012 Rainsong JM1000 Black Ice
2009 Wechter Pathmaker 9600 LTD
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  #71  
Old 12-12-2013, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowie View Post
That's what puts me off, is the 3D look. Too flashy and already starting to become dated. The only ones I thought were ok looking were the ones that hid the carbon fiber. CF was really cool a few years ago when people were using it on cars, phone cases, etc. But it's played now and I think they'd do well to not emphasize it. Everyone has their own tastes though and I'm not putting down anyone who likes the CF look, I liked it at one time. I think wood grain more represents the nature of acoustic music, visually. Something feels disingenuous about the guitar above. Again, that's just me.
Ha-ha-ha, whatever.

Btw, the 3D look on Emeralds is more subtle in reality than as pictured under promotional lighting conditions. Nothing too flashy about it. As for the look appearing dated, not really since the vast majority of traditional wood players have never even seen a CF guitar, let-alone played one. All those I know are very intrigued and complementary.

One thing is true. I've noticed that more and more 'traditional' guitar folks are sticking their heads in the CF forum and posting. Whether favorable views or not, it's a clear sign of the baby steps happening toward CF guitars breaking into the mainstream. I'd be willing to bet that most posting here are at least curious enough to know more, and are likely future owners. That has happened to many of us here who have seen the light…and heard the sweet sounds.
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Last edited by Acousticado; 12-12-2013 at 12:16 PM.
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  #72  
Old 12-12-2013, 01:25 PM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
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One can extoll the virtues of a carbon fiber guitar, but unless someone is open to it, the message won't get through.

Years ago, when I first heard of carbon fiber being used to make a guitar, I completely dismissed it. An acquaintance (an engineer) worked for a CF guitar maker for a short time; knowing I was a long-time player, he asked if I had any interest.

Um, no thanks.

Last year, I poked my head in on this forum. You know, just to see what people were saying about CF. Some of the "odd shapes and sound holes in the 'wrong' place" images made me think "gimmick". Now, I am probably not as much of a traditionalist as many players - I owned an Ovation for 14 years... and, I liked it. Oh, it wasn't comfortable on my lap, but for this old rock 'n roller, it played nice, was great for traveling, and sounded fine plugged in when playing out. Yeah, maybe that Ovation "opened the door" for me.

The Rainsong Shorty that I bought this summer is probably considered pretty traditional by some CF standards... if you compare the size/shape specs on it, it is VERY close to a Taylor GC 12-fret. It may have been a leap of faith when I ordered the Shorty... but, it was not a BIG leap.

Now that I've had plenty of time with the Rainsong, I totally get the appeal. The shimmery finishes and different shapes and sound hole locations make more sense. Less "Dr. Seuss" and more "Oh, I get that." BUT, it is the sound and how the guitar plays that makes it a keeper.

I don't feel like I am a "convert," but I do have a much more open mind. When I consider the next guitar, there are more options!

Captain Jim

(Oh, sure, they offer the Black Ice type top on a Shorty after I bought mine!) I really like the look, feel, and sound of my carbon fiber guitar... but I like my wood ones, too. Maybe it would be better to just say, "I like my guitars!"

Last edited by Captain Jim; 12-15-2013 at 06:25 PM.
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  #73  
Old 12-12-2013, 02:04 PM
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I don't get the dated comment. Trendy, perhaps, but I think it depends on your exposure to carbon fiber. Do you have any other hobbies, interests or anything else that has opened your eyes to the benefits of carbon fiber, aesthetics aside?

The look of carbon fiber for the sake of the look is dated and trendy in my opinion. But the use of carbon for it's benefits is neither dated, nor trendy.

Somewhere around 1987, a friend showed up at school with a carbon fiber bicycle. Nobody had seen one yet, and it was amazing. That drew my interest into carbon fiber products as a viable replacement for the longstanding belief that steel was THE material to make bicycle frames from. Cannondale had a heck of a time building only aluminum frames and trying to complete with the 'steel stigma'. Fortunately, many cyclists are tech geeks, and like progress, and embraced the benefits of aluminum and carbon fiber.

I've switched from wood hockey sticks, to aluminum, now carbon fiber. Why? They're better. Lighter, harder shots, and more durable than wood.

I've got carbon fiber surfboards. They're completely hollow, and several pounds lighter that a typical fiberglass and foam or epoxy board. These have not taken off in the surf world, I'm not sure if HydroEpic is still making boards...

On the same note, I will not use carbon fiber golf shafts. I like mine with steel shafts. I do see when and where certain materials truly have benefits over others. I did try carbon, just didn't fit my swing.

I've worked with carbon fiber and fiberglass on a hobbyist level, and it's construction methods are very interesting to me.
I've also done a bunch of woodworking since I was a kid in my dads cabinet shop till now, with a small shop in my garage.

I've currently got a couple of projects going on, including a few guitars made from wood, carbon fiber, and a mix of both.

I've laid out carbon cloth in molds and vacuum bags. I'm well aware of how difficult it is to get a good finish with the fabric and resins. In my opinion, it's more difficult than working with wood, and mistakes cost significantly more.

I've been a fan of quality carbon fiber products for over 25 years. I've been a fan of quality wood products for over 40.

My point is, I look at a product as a whole first, for its application, form an opinion, then start digging into what or why I do or do not like. I do not look at a wood guitar with a cedar top and say 'eww it's ugly I don't like it'. I don't prefer light colored guitar tops. I have no rational reason, just visual preference. I'll use the product and see if it's performing as it was intended when built.

It seems there is a definite stigma against carbon fiber, before it's even discussed as a material to make a guitar from, and my assumption is that that stigma is held by folks who have not experienced the benefits of carbon fiber first hand.

Some folks still refer to carbon fiber as plastic, or graphite. Both are incorrect. With that terminology, all guitars are simply wood, not rosewood, mahogany, no ebony, no maple, just wood. To the average joe, yeah, it's a wood guitar, but to a builder or aficionado, the kinds of wood matter, just like carbon fiber matters, whether its unidirectional or weave, pre-preg?, 6oz, 12.4oz, what bias you lay up, how many layers, maybe some Aramid cloth....

All this said, I LIKE the way my Emerald X7os and Emerald X20 sound. And everyone that has picked up the guitars with no preconceived notion (probably because Emerald isn't a household name) loved them. They all noticed that yes, they sounded different, but they sounded good.

I've never played a Taylor. But I would never post that I have a disdain for their product or materials they build with. As such, I would not extrapolate that lack of knowledge to say, I don't like wood guitars.

It's posted constantly to play before you buy, as each guitar is different, however it seems as quite a few folks who played a Rainsong once, or tried a pre-Peavey CA model now state they don't like carbon fiber guitars.

How about an honest comment, I have played X guitar, and it didn't suit me.

I won't say I like all carbon fiber guitars. I haven't played all of them. I like the Emeralds I have played. I like the idea that they use carbon fiber to break away from shapes that were dictated by wood guitars.
I like they way Emerald changed the shape of the lower side of the x20 so that it sits on your leg at a forward angle, blended soft corners into the transition from the tops and sides, as well as the armrest contours. They have used carbon fiber for more of the benefits it can provide, without constraining themselves to fit into the mold of a wooden guitar.

Is my Emerald better than my Martin or Larivee? Wait, I'm not asking if my Martin is better than my Larivee, so I shouldn't ask if a carbon fiber guitar is better. They are each different, and I like each of their qualities.

Chris

Last edited by CFW; 12-12-2013 at 02:19 PM.
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  #74  
Old 12-12-2013, 02:09 PM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
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As far as appearance goes, I doubt that is stopping anyone from purchasing a CF guitar. I purchased my first one almost 14-yars ago out of necessity, a Rainsong OM1000 at my local GC. We had just bought our vacation home in the local mountains and I found that wood guitars didn't do well with the 12% humidity up there, so I decided to buy something I wouldn't have to worry about. Other than the color, the Rainsong had a nice traditional look and feel, as well as great tone and playability so I was sold. The kid who wrote me up was kind enough to reminded me that I could buy a really nice wood guitar for the same $2000 plus price but I told him I have plenty of wood guitars and handed him my Amex. Once I had the OM1000 for a while I began to appreciate the qualities of CF more and more and some time later I added a Blackbird Rider to my stable.

Although I haven't lost my passion for the look and tonal qualities of wood guitars, I really appreciate what CF has to offer and I'm almost at a point where if forced to chose just one guitar, it might have to be a CF acoustic.
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  #75  
Old 12-13-2013, 09:11 AM
new2guitar_eh new2guitar_eh is offline
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This has been a great thread...lots of ideas, opinions and discussion
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