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  #31  
Old 08-09-2018, 02:12 PM
DukeX DukeX is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I found the original thread with guesses and reveal:
A is the Zoom with internal mics, C is Great River+Cranesong+RME, so you preferred the preamp and converters in the Zoom to the pricey chain.
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
BTW, I just read the original thread I posted, and I was remembering wrong about this. These 3 recordings were done simultaneously, so all three are the same performance. Any differences, therefore are presumably due to the gear or mic placement - even with the spaced pairs (A and C) the mics are necessarily moved by an inch or so, in order to have two pairs of mics setup.
Now I'm confused.
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  #32  
Old 08-09-2018, 02:53 PM
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Now I'm confused.
Sorry, brain lapse while typing. A is the Zoom with *external* mics (spaced pairs), not internal (I fixed my post). B is Zoom with internal mics, in XY, C is the fancier chain, no zoom involved. So A and C are the same mics, but A uses the Zoom preamp/converters, C uses a considerably higher-end chain.
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Last edited by Doug Young; 08-09-2018 at 03:06 PM.
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  #33  
Old 08-09-2018, 04:54 PM
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Sorry, brain lapse while typing. A is the Zoom with *external* mics (spaced pairs), not internal (I fixed my post). B is Zoom with internal mics, in XY, C is the fancier chain, no zoom involved. So A and C are the same mics, but A uses the Zoom preamp/converters, C uses a considerably higher-end chain.
Thanks for the clarification, Doug.
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  #34  
Old 08-11-2018, 11:21 AM
cdikland cdikland is offline
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You might post something, and maybe people can help. It's hard to diagnose issues without being there in person, but we've had a number of people make great progress on AGF by posting examples, and getting suggestions from the various people into recording.
Great idea so here goes:






All of the above were recorded during the same session.
The RODE and MXL Mic are connected to an M-Audio DUO Connect to a PC running Adobe Audition.

Pretty much all of the mics are positioned at the 12th fret.
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  #35  
Old 08-11-2018, 12:03 PM
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I don't think the recordings sound particularly bad, and most sound similar at first listen. The good news is that I don't hear the #1 issue most people have, which is a bad room sound. The recording is clean and direct, no obvious room issues, so you're in good shape.

As far as improving, a *big* thing is that you're in mono. Just one mic, right? All my zoom demos were stereo, and stereo does wonderful things for guitar, and makes it sound more like what we hear (with 2 ears...) when we're playing. I've never gotten a mono sound I liked, yours sound better than most of my mono efforts.

Getting into details, you're getting some boomy notes, possibly from being too close to the guitar. The treble notes are also very bright and thin, that is also possibly due to mic placement. That 12th fret position you always read about is great for a jangly rhythm track in a rock/pop mix - that's what everyone who writes articles on recording thinks acoustic guitars are for. For a gentle solo fingerstyle recording like this, I prefer more warmth, less string sound (which is what you get at the 12th fret). Try some other locations. I usually like the middle of the guitar - *above* the soundhole, not directly in front of it, about aligned with the top of the waist. You might also try the lower bout, aimed at the bridge, or just moving closer in from your 12th fret position. Maybe the neck/body joint, aimed in toward the guitar a bit more. Lots of different sounds to be had by playing the mic, just try lots of places and see what you get - I'd be horrified if I added up all the hours I've spent experimenting with mic placement, inch by inch by inch....

Hope some of these suggestions help. One question for you, how do you think the sound on the recording compares to the sound you hear from the guitar in person?
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Last edited by Doug Young; 08-11-2018 at 11:32 PM.
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  #36  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:02 AM
cdikland cdikland is offline
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I don't think the recordings sound particularly bad, and most sound similar at first listen. The good news is that I don't hear the #1 issue most people have, which is a bad room sound. The recording is clean and direct, no obvious room issues, so you're in good shape.

As far as improving, a *big* thing is that you're in mono. Just one mic, right? All my zoom demos were stereo, and stereo does wonderful things for guitar, and makes it sound more like what we hear (with 2 ears...) when we're playing. I've never gotten a mono sound I liked, yours sound better than most of my mono efforts.

Getting into details, you're getting some boomy notes, possibly from being too close to the guitar. The treble notes are also very bright and thin, that is also possibly due to mic placement. That 12th fret position you always read about is great for a jangly rhythm track in a rock/pop mix - that's what everyone who writes articles on recording thinks acoustic guitars are for. For a gentle solo fingerstyle recording like this, I prefer more warmth, less string sound (which is what you get at the 12th fret). Try some other locations. I usually like the middle of the guitar - *above* the soundhole, not directly in front of it, about aligned with the top of the waist. You might also try the lower bout, aimed at the bridge, or just moving closer in from your 12th fret position. Maybe the neck/body joint, aimed in toward the guitar a bit more. Lots of different sounds to be had by playing the mic, just try lots of places and see what you get - I'd be horrified if I added up all the hours I've spent experimenting with mic placement, inch by inch by inch....

Hope some of these suggestions help.
Thank you very much for your feedback. You nailed what I hear (boomy, bright and thin). In the past, I have tried moving the mics closer to the sound hole and always ended up with overpowering bass, however, I am pretty sure I haven't tried ABOVE the sound hole as my current mic stands would not go that high

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One question for you, how do you think the sound on the recording compares to the sound you hear from the guitar in person?
Well, the boomy sound and bright thin trebles don't exist in any of my 3 main guitars. I often use the Bourgeois as a substitute for my classical guitar because of its warmth and colors of sound none of which I have successfully captured in any of my recording attempts.

The "best" recording guitar is my Larrivee (JCL 40th Anni). I used the Bourgeois for the recordings above because it seems to be the most challenging to record. When playing either guitar side by side in person the Larrivee doesn't hold up to the Bourgeois. Wonderful guitar but doesn't have the punch, colors and volume on the Bourgeois. Recorded sound of this guitar however is closest to the "in person" sound.


Anyhow... Getting a Zoom H4n Pro tomorrow. Bought it moments before Amazon put the H6 on sale. If I like the recorded sound of the H4 I suppose I could always exchange it for the H6 if the additional features of the latter are worth the extra cost.

Last edited by cdikland; 08-12-2018 at 09:26 AM.
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  #37  
Old 08-13-2018, 02:40 PM
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So I got my Zoom H4 Pro today, installed batteries and SD card, turned in on, laid it down on a table in front of me, hit record and started to play. And...Ö.

Well there simply is no comparison to any of my other equipment. I have got to think my M-Audio Duo is defective. Zoom recordings, with little consideration to mic placement and/or room, actually sound like my guitar(s). In particular, my classical guitar sound awesome. In the past they always sounded like a cheap plastic guitar. So now I have to wonder and ask myself.


The Zoom H6 went on sale shortly after I purchased this H4. Should I return the H4 and buy the H6???


In either case. I will post some recordings of my new toy soon as I do a little more experimenting with this device.
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  #38  
Old 08-23-2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cdikland View Post
So I got my Zoom H4 Pro today, installed batteries and SD card, turned in on, laid it down on a table in front of me, hit record and started to play. And...Ö.

Well there simply is no comparison to any of my other equipment. I have got to think my M-Audio Duo is defective. Zoom recordings, with little consideration to mic placement and/or room, actually sound like my guitar(s). In particular, my classical guitar sound awesome. In the past they always sounded like a cheap plastic guitar. So now I have to wonder and ask myself.


The Zoom H6 went on sale shortly after I purchased this H4. Should I return the H4 and buy the H6???


In either case. I will post some recordings of my new toy soon as I do a little more experimenting with this device.
I have the H5 and it is amazing what you can get with the supplied X-Y mic setup so for starting out, itís hard to beat. I learned from Doug that if you want to add compression, lo-cut, and reverb, do it in a DAW on your laptop or desktop. Iíve also gotten great results using external mics with the H5.

Unless you are recording multiple tracks, I donít think the H6 really brings any major benefits over the H4N or the H5 so you are probably good to go for a while.
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  #39  
Old 08-23-2018, 12:01 PM
cdikland cdikland is offline
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Unless you are recording multiple tracks, I donít think the H6 really brings any major benefits over the H4N or the H5 so you are probably good to go for a while.
Well, I went ahead and swapped the H4 for the H6 with the hope that some of the things that annoyed me with the former would be better on the H6. For instance, boot up and/or disconnecting from USB is extremely slow on the H4. Batteries seem to drain quite a bit faster than I liked. That said, had the H6 not been on sale, I would have been quite happy to keep the H4. As for the quality of recording between the two, I sure cant tell any.
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