Is a slope shoulder a Dread or Jumbo

[Jaden]

I finally learned from you kind and knowledgeable folks here that a slope shoulder dreadnought refers to a 12fret to the body Martin dreadnought, and I assume the lower bout width on that guitar would be 15 5/8”. When the lower bout width is 16” or more, that is jumbo territory in my mind. In guitar body measurements, where 1/4” makes a big difference, the Martin dreadnought being 15 5/8” width at the lower bout, the difference between that and 16 1/4” of the Gibson J-45 is *huge* - putting the Gibson J clearly into jumbo territory.

[Wade Hampton]

Ultimately, this discussion thread will peter out (unless folks get too testy and it gets locked,) but in either case neither side will convince the other: some folks will insist on these strict, brand-based definitions, and the rest us will just flat out not care....

So far as I'm concerned, my Gibson Advanced Jumbo, my Klepper KJ and my Epiphone whatever-the-heck-it-is are all slope shoulder dreadnoughts. Lots of players and several companies actively building acoustic guitars these days seem to agree with my definition.

Sorry if some of you don't.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Silurian]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Ultimately, this discussion thread will peter out (unless folks get too testy and it gets locked,) but in either case neither side will convince the other: some folks will insist on these strict, brand-based definitions, and the rest us will just flat out not care....

So far as I'm concerned, my Gibson Advanced Jumbo, my Klepper KJ and my Epiphone whatever-the-heck-it-is are all slope shoulder dreadnoughts. Lots of players and several companies actively building acoustic guitars these days seem to agree with my definition.

Sorry if some of you don't.


Wade Hampton Miller

I agree with Wade.

I think this jumbo/slope shoulder dread debate is an "angels dancing on the head of a pin" discussion.

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by Silurian

I agree with Wade.

I think this jumbo/slope shoulder dread debate is an "angels dancing on the head of a pin" discussion.

What size angels?

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

What size angels?

Yeah, and what kind of pins are the angels dancing on: aftermarket pins made of bone or fossilized mammoth ivory, or factory stock? And what kind of dancing are they doing, country line dancing or the Highland Fling?

I think that ALL of that must have a tonal impact - how could it not?


Wade Hampton “There’s Just So MUCH To Think About!” Miller

[Silly Moustache]

Wade, I usually agree with your comments, but as Acoustic guitar aficionados, I feel it somewhat foolish to either deliberately or ignorantly mis-name something that we (should) know about.
To be accepting of the errors in the Gibson (and other) websites, composed, I'm sure by marketing guys rather than experts seems just plain odd to me.

However, to those that seek the truth, a "slope shoulder dreadnought" is an "original" 12 fret Martin style dreadnought, and a a Gibson style large guitar is either a Jumbo or a super Jumbo, usually but not always defined by the prefixes J or SJ.

I shall now rest my case, hitch up my Wrangler 501s, pack up my Microsoft Macbook, climb into the seat of my Mercedes Passat (or my Nissan CRV) and drive off into the sunset ....or is that the sunburst, to fight sin and ignorance wherever I find it.

"Hi ho Trigger and away!"

[Wade Hampton]

Andy, I understand and respect your viewpoint. But when someone says “slope shoulder dreadnought” to me, the image of a Martin D-28S doesn’t immediately spring to mind - it just doesn’t. In the more than forty years I’ve been playing guitar, and been deeply aware of Martin guitars, none of the players I’ve known has ever referred to those guitars that way. They’ve always been called “Martin 12 fret dreadnoughts.”

At least in the circles I’ve traveled in.

When somebody has used the phrase “slope shoulder dreadnought” or “round shoulder dreadnought,” they’ve invariably been talking about Gibson J-45’s or similar instruments. This has been among players, collectors, music store owners and hand builders.

The only place - the ONLY place - this usage has ever been seen as even remotely controversial is on internet guitar forums, where every so often folks will come along and tell us to stop calling J-45’s slope shoulder dreadnoughts because that’s WRONG.

When I took a linguistics class in college the professor told us that there were two basic schools of thought regarding language: there were descriptivists and prescriptivists. Descriptivists sought to describe language as it actually is, while prescriptivists tried to tell descriptivists what they were doing wrong and to straighten up right now!!

Some of this can be attributed to personality type: my sister is a prescriptivist. I’m a descriptivist, and will never be the type to follow instructions very well.

My overall point in this thread is that the phrases “slope shoulder dreadnought” and “round shoulder dreadnought” are already in common use across a broad spectrum of people actively involved with acoustic guitars, in large part because many of us (me included) feel that they describe the guitars in question more accurately than calling them jumbos.

It’s that simple.

So I’m sorry that my doing so bothers some folks, but it’s not as though it makes any difference whether anyone objects. Even if I, personally, repent and cast away the sin of inaccurate nomenclature and never utter the cursed phrase “slope shoulder dreadnought” again, that’s not going to stop the perhaps thousands of players in the United States who are going to continue using it.

Despite whatever wailing and gnashing of teeth that might cause...

Short version: I’m a descriptivist, pure and simple. That isn’t going to change.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Phoenix75]

So is the Raj 126 an advanced Jumbo? Is the lower bout the same dimensions as a dread? Does the J stand for Jumbo? It's based on a J45 as far as I know...An advanced Jumbo apparantely.


Or a slope or round shouldered dread which is the exact same lower bout as a trad dread but with the rounded upper bout.

[Mr Bojangles]

An interesting and rather pointless discussion, but I tend to think that Silly Moustache was right on with his last post.

[Hobblecreek]

And I tend to agree with Wade Hampton.

Not sure I really want to step into this fray but looking up the word “vernacular” provides following definition: “Vernacular describes everyday language, including slang, that's used by the people. The vernacular is different from literary or official language: it's the way people really talk with each other.”

I think this is an apt way to look at the terms used to describe these guitars. Most of the folks I know who play guitar (we are an older “advanced-age” group and sadly yes, some of us are “jumbo”) have for years heard the terms for a Gibson J45 as “advanced Jumbo” or “slope shoulder dreadnought” used interchangeably and when we do, we all know exactly what the other person is saying (or describing) because the terms have become a part of our social language, our vernacular. We are an unofficial / non-affiliated group that’s been active for 40+years (on-average) in this hobby, and it’s funny now that I think about it, but when we are referring to each other’s guitars we never add the words “square or slope shouldered or dreadnought”, we simply say, “hey, ‘lemme see your D-28 for a minute while you play my Gibson.”

It does not surprise me that many manufacturers employ the same vernacular (usage of the terms) when they describe their products:

Collings defines their CJ Series (Collings Jumbo) as “offering diverse bracing designs, wood selections, and sounds, all within the context of this classic slope shoulder dreadnought shape.”

Bourgeois states that their “Advanced” and Banjo Killer models have a “slope D” body style -- gee, I wonder what the D stands for?

While the text for Santa Cruz’ Vintage Jumbo, Vintage Southerner and Roy Smeck models describes them as Advanced Jumbo (J45) models, they are nevertheless model-classified within SC’s manufacturing under the heading “Slope-Shoulder Dreadnoughts.”

And yes, this is a pointless discussion that will have zero effect on how I refer to these instruments going forward.

[lossforgain]

Originally Posted by Phoenix75

So is the Raj 126 an advanced Jumbo? Is the lower bout the same dimensions as a dread? Does the J stand for Jumbo? It's based on a J45 as far as I know...An advanced Jumbo apparantely.


Or a slope or round shouldered dread which is the exact same lower bout as a trad dread but with the rounded upper bout.

My RAJ-122 fits great into a dread case, FWIW. I think of it as a slope-shoulder dread even though it's clearly labeled as an advanced jumbo. Doesn't really matter to me, and the majority of people watching me play would say that it looks like...a guitar.

[Hobblecreek]

Originally Posted by lossforgain

the majority of people watching me play would say that it looks like...a guitar.

Best comment so far!

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by Hobblecreek

And I tend to agree with Wade Hampton.

Not sure I really want to step into this fray but looking up the word “vernacular” provides following definition: “Vernacular describes everyday language, including slang, that's used by the people. The vernacular is different from literary or official language: it's the way people really talk with each other.”

I think this is an apt way to look at the terms used to describe these guitars. Most of the folks I know who play guitar (we are an older “advanced-age” group and sadly yes, some of us are “jumbo”) have for years heard the terms for a Gibson J45 as “advanced Jumbo” or “slope shoulder dreadnought” used interchangeably and when we do, we all know exactly what the other person is saying (or describing) because the terms have become a part of our social language, our vernacular. We are an unofficial / non-affiliated group that’s been active for 40+years (on-average) in this hobby, and it’s funny now that I think about it, but when we are referring to each other’s guitars we never add the words “square or slope shouldered or dreadnought”, we simply say, “hey, ‘lemme see your D-28 for a minute while you play my Gibson.”

It does not surprise me that many manufacturers employ the same vernacular (usage of the terms) when they describe their products:

Collings defines their CJ Series (Collings Jumbo) as “offering diverse bracing designs, wood selections, and sounds, all within the context of this classic slope shoulder dreadnought shape.”

Bourgeois states that their “Advanced” and Banjo Killer models have a “slope D” body style -- gee, I wonder what the D stands for?

While the text for Santa Cruz’ Vintage Jumbo, Vintage Southerner and Roy Smeck models describes them as Advanced Jumbo (J45) models, they are nevertheless model-classified within SC’s manufacturing under the heading “Slope-Shoulder Dreadnoughts.”

And yes, this is a pointless discussion that will have zero effect on how I refer to these instruments going forward.

I mentioned this earlier in this thread! I don't think anyone cares outside of this forum what your guitar body shape is called! I think it's important to know what style your guitar is, but I'd say the chance of someone asking you in a jam/festival setting is slim to none! I think this Saturday at the festival I'm going to, I'll walk around and ask people, "Now, is that a Dreadnaught or slope-shoulder or is it a Jumbo?", just to see what kind of strange looks I get!!LOL No, I'm going to play music all day with fellow musicians and not worry about if anyone knows the "CORRECT" body shape of my Bourgeois!! I bet I don't get asked one time if it's a Slope-shoulder!!

[Hobblecreek]

Here’s an interesting thought question that's not totally unrelated:

When Martin was going through the process to determine the build revisions on the re-imagined D-28 and HD-28 models we read in Martin, The Journal of Acoustic Guitars, vol 8 (2018), page 23 that:

“It’s an existential issue, and touches on a core question about Martin’s flagship model: Which parts of such a long history get carried forward, and which are left in the past? Over the 75 years it has been around, the D-28 has been both a slope-shouldered Dreadnought and a square-shouldered one; it’s had a 12-fret neck and a 14-fret neck; it’s had scalloped and straight bracing; it’s had herringbone and plain white binding. So which D-28, then, is the true D-28?”

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by Hobblecreek

Here’s an interesting thought question that's not totally unrelated:

When Martin was going through the process to determine the build revisions on the re-imagined D-28 and HD-28 models we read in Martin, The Journal of Acoustic Guitars, vol 8 (2018), page 23 that:

“It’s an existential issue, and touches on a core question about Martin’s flagship model: Which parts of such a long history get carried forward, and which are left in the past? Over the 75 years it has been around, the D-28 has been both a slope-shouldered Dreadnought and a square-shouldered one; it’s had a 12-fret neck and a 14-fret neck; it’s had scalloped and straight bracing; it’s had herringbone and plain white binding. So which D-28, then, is the true D-28?”

Would you like some Salt and Pepper to eat with this can of worms??LOL