K&K Pure Mini vs using Shure sm58, or Studio Projects B condenser - classical guitar

[Winfred]

Hi! I only play my small nylon string guitar for coffeehouse type of "open mics" to try out songs I've written. I depend on whatever mic they might have. Sometimes I feel vulnerable sound quality wise, especially if they have a cheap mic, and especially with my little nylon string guitar that plays not very loud. I'm in a paradox as the K&K Pure Mini, a local shop told me, with no volume control, will cost $245 installed. The K&K with volume control is $285 installed, and I suppose 7.5% sales tax on that. Is the added $40 in having a volume control a big advantage? That price believe it or not, is really stretching my budget right now. I debate and think about 2 types of mics I already have and maybe going that route.

I have a Shure sm58, and a Studio Projects B condenser, mics I bought in 2004 back when I had money. I'm thinking I could save a lot of money and start carrying one or the other with me instead of installing a K&K. Is that a good idea? They both have that 3 prong type of plug-in. Will either work on cheaper amps coffee houses and/or what most free lance open mic hosts have?

The condenser mic instructions said, "Don't blow into the mic, you can tear the gold foil diaphragm and ruin the mic.” I think it has it's own 48v phantom power one can turn on or off. I ride bike and carry my guitar on my back to the open mics. Extra stuff I haul in a side bag on my rear rack... Would my condenser mic work best both technically and travel fairly ruggedly at times on bumpy paths and streets? I think my Shure is heavy duty and feels like it. I just don't know about sound quality compared to K&K. Maybe I could save by bringing my own mic and not have to pay to have a K&K installed. Is that a good idea? Really I'm so low budget going the K&K route I'd really be stretching it. Any input would greatly help! Thanks!

[phcorrigan]

I have the K&K in my Martin HD-28V. I had it professionally installed for a total cost of $225. If it was a less-expensive guitar I would have installed it myself and saved $125, or $175 if I had installed the JBB equivalent instead.

I installed it because it made things much easier at the open mics I play. Having said that, unless I use my ToneDexter ($400), the sound is not nearly as good as a mic'd guitar.

Unless or until you're ready to make a significant investment in electrifying your guitar, I think the idea of taking your SM-58 with you is a good one.

[Gordon Currie]

You *should* be able to use your condensor mike at any open mike that has a mixer. The caveat is that some very old and cheap mixers lack proper phantom power (which powers your mikes). I hadn't seen one of these in 20 years until last summer at a winery gig where the ancient Peavy mixer only put out 9v, and my mike needed minimum 18v.

The SM-57 is not a condensor mike. The upside is it will work with ANY mixer made in the last century. The downside is that it is not as sensitive in the treble frequencies as a condensor mike, but you may not even notice.

Since you are performing only in coffeehouse open mikes, I would recommend against going the SBT (K+K pure mini and many others) route. Although installing an SBT makes life easier in some ways, it also can easily complicate your life.

At some point you might want to revisit this, but for now I think you can save that money by taking one or both of your mikes with you.

[TNO]

I vote for sticking a mic, any mic, it front of a classical. Dynamic mics can work surprisingly well. Gillian Welch and Dave Rawlings tour with nothing but a handful of old SM57s.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Winfred

Hi! I only play my small nylon string guitar for coffeehouse type of "open mics" to try out songs I've written. I depend on whatever mic they might have. Sometimes I feel vulnerable sound quality wise, especially if they have a cheap mic, and especially with my little nylon string guitar that plays not very loud. I'm in a paradox as the K&K Pure Mini, a local shop told me, with no volume control, will cost $245 installed. The K&K with volume control is $285 installed, and I suppose 7.5% sales tax on that. Is the added $40 in having a volume control a big advantage? That price believe it or not, is really stretching my budget right now. I debate and think about 2 types of mics I already have and maybe going that route.

Hi W
I don't know where you live, but your local shop is ripping you off at $245. We get K&K Pure mini pickups plus install for $150 locally. I'd shop around for an installer, and just purchase the K&K Pure mini classic version for $120, and then take it to be installed. Even at $20 higher, $175 would be more in line for purchase and install.

The Classical guitar version has 4 sensors instead of three…which is about $20 more than the normal version.

The volume knob version of K&K pickups is passive (no preamp or battery), which means when it's turned all the way up, it's at normal volume, and you can ONLY turn it down. It's unnecessary. They can turn you up or down on the PA/mixer. The K&K produces about the hottest signal of any internal pickup.

It will likely give you better results at open mics than a mic, because you should be able substantially more volume than by placing a dynamic mic (cheap mic) in front of your guitar. And if you try a condenser mic live, feedback it a prevalent (and frequent) problem.

I own 4 acoustic guitars with K&K rigs in them. I am able to play the K&K about ten times the volume of a cheap mic.

[Winfred]

Hi Phcorrigan!

Thanks very much for your response. You paid $225 quite a few years ago? The shop I've gone to quoted $245 no volume control, and $285 for the more expensive K&K that has a tiny volume control that is mounted along the edge of the sound hole. I don't want a volume control as I fear it will interfere with my sound. So the volume control pickup price alone is $160, and without is $120 and add labor of $125, and then the tax that here in Minnesota is 7.5%. Another reason maybe the price is more is because for classical guitars K&K has a somewhat more expensive pickup as it has four sensors that glue under the bridge instead of 3 as with steel string guitars. He said overall a "transducer" style of a pickup is best for acoustic guitar as I asked him about other designs. K&K is said to pick up in the best way the natural tones of an acoustic guitar.

Another problem, and I know it really is ultimately my own decision, but maybe some input from others... I've owned my guitar since 1981. I bought it used for $10 with the cardboard type of case. A yr ago I bought a nice "Superlight" brand case that a person at Superlight emailed back saying I was sold a counterfeit made in Korea. It was cheaper, I think by about $75, and I wondered why, but the online store presented it like it was a "Superlight" made in Japan only they didn't mention it was a made in Korea counterfeit... which it doesn't have the nicer YKK zippers... but all another story.

People joke with me saying my guitar is like the beat up old one Willie Nelson plays. It looks terrible but sounds very nice and have had others compliment the sound quality. A luthier (He doesn't make instruments but repairs them... What's the name of that trade?) said my neck is migrating slowly into the body and it would be about $300 to reposition it and secure it better, only for me that's getting to be too much. I'm okay if I play 12th fret or lower. Anything above starts to be noticeably "off". It's funny as I like with variations to go above the 12th fret fairly often. So do I spend $300 more or do I buy a different used guitar for that price... all the type of things going on that makes things difficult with my decision i.e. K&K or no K&K and fix the problem? Is the guitar worth it, or do I love it's amazing sound and repair? If I repair, which I really can barely afford, then I can't afford the K&K... or maybe labor is less as I think once the guitar is apart it's easy to install the K&K. Any advice from anyone is much appreciated.

What is the "JBB equivalent? Is it a counterfeit to the K&K? Is it really equivalent. Is it made in China (which I like to avoid Communist China... but there goes my politics ha) I have a feeling there are odd bracings inside my guitar as I remember a couple of years ago when I had several things done the repair person said years ago the former owner did repairs on the underside of the spruce top that one needs a mirror to see. I can easily see on the seam down the middle of the back where they glued quite a few tiny squares of very thin mahogany to hold the back from splitting down that back center seam all acoustic guitars have.

A couple of years ago a different instrument repair guy (luthier?) coached me in his shop and I even re-glued a large brace in place. The back had separated along about 12 inches of seam. Also with a special ratcheting strap around the body I was able to tighten the body shape and realign. I also with special luthier clamps glued it back and saved a lot of money using the shop's "open" bench the guy said he wanted to start having.

I went back a year later only the owner seemed to have gotten rid of him as she said he wasn't working there any more. The owner looked displeased when she said it, so who knows maybe it had been all over the issue of his wanting to have an open shop, what he was calling a "community bench". It was nice as he would step aside and coach me along the way yet kept working on plenty of guitars with people who didn't have the time or courage to attempt repairing their own. I can only do "one" either the K&K and deal with the migrating neck... and $300 on fixing that. I have a feeling the most practical logic would be to fix the underlying problem with my guitars very structure, and/or buy another guitar. It gets very complicated. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks for your answers!!

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

I have the K&K in my Martin HD-28V. I had it professionally installed for a total cost of $225. If it was a less-expensive guitar I would have installed it myself and saved $125, or $175 if I had installed the JBB equivalent instead.

I installed it because it made things much easier at the open mics I play. Having said that, unless I use my ToneDexter ($400), the sound is not nearly as good as a mic'd guitar.

Unless or until you're ready to make a significant investment in electrifying your guitar, I think the idea of taking your SM-58 with you is a good one.

[Winfred]

Hi Larry!

Thanks a lot about prices, a vital issue in my low budget case! Wow $175 and with purchase and install!!! I live in Minnesota and price quotes are from Monday 4-8-19 from a shop in Mpls/St.Paul metro area. For classical or nylon string guitar K&K 4 sensor pickup the shop said is $120. The pickup that has the volume control is more at $160, then he said add their labor at $125. Probably a stupid question but want to be 100% sure... is that still a lot higher than it really should cost? If so wow, I better shop around! So quoted $245 no volume control, and $285 with volume control, and with higher priced 4 sensor classical pickup.

The tiny volume control is mounted along the edge of the sound hole. I don't want a volume control as I fear it will interfere with my sound. Do you happen to know... is a volume control a big advantage? What actually is the benefit of it? I go to coffee houses that have "open mic" and try out songs I've written for crowd reaction. There so far is always a "host" who either uses the coffeehouse's sound system and amp, or they bring their own. The ones who are better at it will be seated at the control panel and do the adjusting, yet there are those more basic amps that don't have that feature, or even if they do the host leaves it the same for all. They don't say it... but do you know, do those hosts receive pay for what they do? Really it's not crowds ha, yet I once played before about 35 people. It's my way to try a new song and also to attempt at getting over being nervous before an audience. Any advice from you or anyone is much appreciated. Thanks again!

Sincerely,
Winfred

PS I have a Shure SM58 (not the 57) mic I could bring with me from now on. In 2004 I bought it in Duluth for $75... are they worth a lot more now days? My reality is I have to hold on the K&K maybe over a more complicated decision if I spend that money instead on another guitar... see my longer post above if you might have time and/or any advice. Is the Shure SM58 with the three prong plug a very good mic for a nylon string guitar? I have a condenser mic, a Studio Projects B mic, but recall a warning not to blow into it as you can tear the gold foil diaphragm. I ride bike to the open mics and worried about jarring etc. Is such a mic even better to try to use than the Shure? I wonder if hosts might not have a 3 prong system... yet still better I bring it. I'm going to try that as a substitute for a while as I have run into the problem with hosts kind of not caring about sound and hosts that have not all that great of equipment. The hosts are very nice for what they do, and I don't complain as I think they are all volunteers. I always buy something from the house too as it helps them survive, yet I see a lot come and not spend any money on the house, sad.

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi W
I don't know where you live, but your local shop is ripping you off at $245. We get K&K Pure mini pickups plus install for $150 locally. I'd shop around for an installer, and just purchase the K&K Pure mini classic version for $120, and then take it to be installed. Even at $20 higher, $175 would be more in line for purchase and install.

The Classical guitar version has 4 sensors instead of three…which is about $20 more than the normal version.

The volume knob version of K&K pickups is passive (no preamp or battery), which means when it's turned all the way up, it's at normal volume, and you can ONLY turn it down. It's unnecessary. They can turn you up or down on the PA/mixer. The K&K produces about the hottest signal of any internal pickup.

It will likely give you better results at open mics than a mic, because you should be able substantially more volume than by placing a dynamic mic (cheap mic) in front of your guitar. And if you try a condenser mic live, feedback it a prevalent (and frequent) problem.

I own 4 acoustic guitars with K&K rigs in them. I am able to play the K&K about ten times the volume of a cheap mic.

[Winfred]

Hi TNO! Thanks for the advice! I love the Gillian and Dave's music! Among others I like the song she wrote about Wichita. Really though they have steel stringed instruments. Maybe a stupid question but just to be sure... do you mean it would still be the same for a nylon string guitar? I have the SM58 I bought in 2004 for $75 back when I had money and bought new recording equipment then too. It's strange as M-Box by DigiDesign I bought for $587 back then is now obsolete as it works only with Windows XP. I wish they would make some program or adapter so it would work on todays computers so musicians could save a lot of money. I took meticulous care of it and only used it at home and saved the original box and instructions, all. I have Windows 10, so now I would have to buy their latest M-Box if they still call them that which a few years ago is even more expensive. Any advice would be much appreciated, and if you might take a look at my other posts on this thread. Maybe something to learn for you too here. Thanks again for your advice!!

Carpe Diem!
Winfred

Originally Posted by TNO

I vote for sticking a mic, any mic, it front of a classical. Dynamic mics can work surprisingly well. Gillian Welch and Dave Rawlings tour with nothing but a handful of old SM57s.

[Winfred]

Hi Gordon!

Thanks very much for your response! I'm kind of going backwards through the responses somehow and might repeat myself, yet if you have time to look at my longer posts above and/or below I'd appreciate any advice I'm not considering. So to carry my condenser mic then they are rugged? I carry my guitar on my back like a back pack. The rest ends up in my side bag on the rack and subject to all the bumps in the road. Sometimes I don't see them but have hit really bad pot holes created by our freezing climate. My condenser has a switch for "omni, cardoid (sp?), and it also can supply 48 volts phantom power. I wonder if I switched that on if it would blow out whomever's amp. Do you know if doing that would cause a problem and damage equipment? With 9 volts already in a system then it would be 67 volts I guess and blow up something, right?

My guitar case has a pouch that's only good for sheet music, although I can fit a small bottle of tea with ginger root I make to clear my vocal cords. Maybe I could roll my condenser mic in something, a padding and carry it on my back. Also, I'm 65 and tend to get bothersome coating on my vocal cords, plus riding in cold air and being nervous seems to coat my vocal cords too. Ginger is pretty spicy and maybe causing part of the problem too and should maybe try just tea. Have you heard anything about that? A guy told me their choir group would eat sliced apples before a performance.

I went to a coffee house open mic on and off for about 2 years just to listen, and just to listen for a few other open mics too, and never saw a "standing ovation". I got brave and played. They gave me a standing ovation after playing a song I wrote. I played other ones but not to standing ovations, yet a guy invited me to their family holiday dinners at Xmas and Thanksgiving and to play on a for real genuine Martin D45. I felt that was a good sign.

I was nervous and fumbled trying to play for their Thanksgiving and was embarrassed and quit. I got too nervous before their big Xmas celebration and just before playing backed down. I wasn't paid, so they didn't lose in that regard, plus if I were ever to be paid (doubt it ha) I would never charge if I got too nervous and quit. I felt bad but didn't want to risk fumbling again. Another musician at an open mic quietly told me I was the best he heard all night, which seems another good sign my songs are making a difference and trying some other open mics. It's different in a family setting, yet almost the same with the coffee house open mic setting, meaning with my nervousness, yet reactions have made me want to try out my songs for other open mics too to both test my songs and to see if I can control my nervousness.

Another host said after I played that he wanted me not to play at the end when I was hoping the crowd would be smaller, but at the beginning, which seems a good sign too. I just don't know if I could damage the condenser mic... or be sure to carry it somehow on my back. I take the city bus one way and ride on the return as I go far to some coffeehouses. Any advice would be much appreciated! Thanks for your response!

Carpe Diem!
Winfred

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

You *should* be able to use your condensor mike at any open mike that has a mixer. The caveat is that some very old and cheap mixers lack proper phantom power (which powers your mikes). I hadn't seen one of these in 20 years until last summer at a winery gig where the ancient Peavy mixer only put out 9v, and my mike needed minimum 18v.

The SM-57 is not a condensor mike. The upside is it will work with ANY mixer made in the last century. The downside is that it is not as sensitive in the treble frequencies as a condensor mike, but you may not even notice.

Since you are performing only in coffeehouse open mikes, I would recommend against going the SBT (K+K pure mini and many others) route. Although installing an SBT makes life easier in some ways, it also can easily complicate your life.

At some point you might want to revisit this, but for now I think you can save that money by taking one or both of your mikes with you.

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Winfred

You paid $225 quite a few years ago?

I paid $225 less than a year ago.

Originally Posted by Winfred

What is the "JBB equivalent? Is it a counterfeit to the K&K? Is it really equivalent. Is it made in China

Their site says made in USA. http://jjb-electronics.com/ They sell for about half the cost of K&K. You can find several discussions on this forum about installing them yourself. You might also consider the Schatten HFN, which a lot of people like and looks like it's easier to install.

[RGWelch]

It sounds to me like you could use a new guitar, rather than put ~$300 into that one and still need to get it fixed.

For amplification, you can try an iRig mic, about $80 on Amazon. It seems like they may be a bargain for the price. Would allow you to go directly into any amp or mixer with some sound quality control.

[ceciltguitar]

If your guitar is also having problems, you might consider an alternative approach: Buy a used Cordoba GK Studio (or some such) for not much more than your budget for amplifying your current guitar, and the Cordobas come with electronics already installed.