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  #151  
Old 01-24-2020, 06:51 AM
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Default New Baggs IR pedal...

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Originally Posted by BluesKing777 View Post
I think Brad Clark has signed the Supernatural pickup system exclusively to Auden Guitars. Guitars need to be built from the ground up with the system.



Before that signing:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s6duECzFC8







BluesKing777.
I don’t think this design would require a specialty guitar build. It looks like it might be applied to any guitar. Aaron was just at NAMM so I assume he’s spoken with him. Maybe the new product is designed for general install.

However, note that his design philosophy is that piezo strips under saddle are insufficient and he believes mass below the piezo is required for proper sensing. Cuki taught us about this. And, all of the Maton, Cole Clark, Takamine, etc. systems employ this approach. What it means, however, is a likely change in acoustic tone. That said, this solution applied to an inexpensive (perhaps laminate) guitar could be just the ticket for gigging musicians.

From his current website:

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  #152  
Old 01-24-2020, 07:01 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Thanks, Dave. Now I'm really getting nostalgic for the good ole' LB6.

Its certainly an interesting point, though, that laminated and "overbuilt" guitars seem to amplify better at industrial strength sound levels.

Last edited by guitaniac; 01-24-2020 at 07:52 AM.
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  #153  
Old 01-24-2020, 08:22 AM
MrErikJ MrErikJ is offline
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
I had the same reaction to the ToneDexter demo with the LB6. If the Soundscape works better with the LB6, that's great news for LB6 users. In addition to better tone, they'd also get fine-tunable EQ and single-dial feedback suppression in the bargain.

On the subject of blending the LB6 with a mic, I've always been leery of that because of the phase cancellation thing. There seems to be a growing body of anecdotal evidence, however, that it works pretty well. When the signature Doyle Dykes Multiac was introduced with the LB6 & Lyric combo, that really got my attention and bolstered my interest in trying that combination. I've finally come up with a very satisfying EQ for the Lyric, and I can't help wondering how the Lyric's extremely articulate and airy sound would blend with the LB6's thick and meaty tone.
I would hope Baggs would make the Soundscape capable of managing the LB6s mixed phase elements so I am curious to try that. It could make the LB6 + Soundscape a competitor to the K&K + Tonedexter combo.

Regarding mixing the LB6, we've talked about this before, but the combo of LB6 and mic has been pretty common since its inception. Some do a homemade version, like James Nash or Eric Johnson who wire it with lavalier mics, or Phil Keaggy who used it in the old Duet II system, or Doyle with his custom LB6/Lyric system and I and LJGuitar who used it in the Dual Source (an update of the Duet system). There's always a risk for phase issues with more than one source but mics don't seem to be an issue with the LB6. Caleb at Baggs told me some (some) pickups don't play nice with it but mics aren't an issue and, he said more often than not, it mixes fine with other pickups too.

I think it'd be a neat to run the Dual Source in stereo with the LB running to the Soundscape and the mic to a standard Para or Venue for the house to have an unaffected signal they can leave out of the monitors if needed. A little "best of both worlds" setup.
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  #154  
Old 01-24-2020, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Thanks, Dave. Now I'm really getting nostalgic for the good ole' LB6.

Its certainly an interesting point, though, that laminated and "overbuilt" guitars seem to amplify better at industrial strength sound levels.

Indeed. There is no single right answer for amplification. For people (pro plates especially) who want to take a stage guitar and instrument cable and plug into anything, at any volume, these systems work well.

At the opposite end of the pickup spectrum, for people who want to preserve the acoustic tone and response of their instrument, there’s a K&K and a pedal of some sort.

And there is an endless stream of stuff in the middle.
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  #155  
Old 01-24-2020, 11:29 AM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Isn't the LB6 just a piezo element glued to the bottom of a micarta saddle? If so, I wonder how difficult it would be to just get the piezo element itself and glue it to a bone saddle for example. I know there's a video online of a user doing it with great success. I also wonder if it would be possible to buy just the pickup portion from Lr Baggs. I think if they were even using Tusq I would go for. I just find micarta to be a bit too soft.

I agree, the LB6/Tonedexter clips are not great but again, I wouldn't use that much of a blend. Maybe even 50/50. The LB6 just seems to have the tone of a Takamine pickup in terms of its fullness. Something that standard UST pickups seem to lack. That's appealing to me, especially if I can pair it with a Tonedexter or Soundscape if it turns out to be a good system.
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  #156  
Old 01-24-2020, 11:58 AM
MrErikJ MrErikJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
Isn't the LB6 just a piezo element glued to the bottom of a micarta saddle? If so, I wonder how difficult it would be to just get the piezo element itself and glue it to a bone saddle for example. I know there's a video online of a user doing it with great success. I also wonder if it would be possible to buy just the pickup portion from Lr Baggs. I think if they were even using Tusq I would go for. I just find micarta to be a bit too soft.

I agree, the LB6/Tonedexter clips are not great but again, I wouldn't use that much of a blend. Maybe even 50/50. The LB6 just seems to have the tone of a Takamine pickup in terms of its fullness. Something that standard UST pickups seem to lack. That's appealing to me, especially if I can pair it with a Tonedexter or Soundscape if it turns out to be a good system.
I literally think all Bob Colosi does is buy the LB6s at a dealer rate, carefully cut off the micarta saddles, and glue on one of his saddles. So, I'm sure someone could def do it at home if they had a steady hand and saw. I don't mind micarta and Taylor uses it as their primary saddle material as it, in their opinion, seems to compare well to Tusq but saddles are all preferential. It's not expensive to get one of Colosi's LB6s .

Funny enough, re: the LB6 comparing to the Takamine palathetic pickup, that pickup was its inspiration. Lloyd Baggs has said he designed it after deconstructing some Takamine pickups and then trying to see how he could shrink it down to make it retrofit into a normal guitar. The unitary piezo design was born and while it definitely sounds better then the Fishmans of the era, Fishman found greater success as the Thinline was production line friendly. The Baggs Ribbon Transducer and later the Element were probably born so they could more easily be stock systems.
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  #157  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:23 PM
247hoopsfan 247hoopsfan is offline
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My 1990 Goodall Standard has the trusty LB6 installed by James Goodall when new. I play it regularly in a large church band. Frequently I am asked to play solo fingerstyle during a reflective time in the service. I run it through a Baggs Para DI direct to the sound system. It always sounds great and people that really don't know guitars comment on the sound. Most of that is due to the fact that it's an awesome guitar, but the LB6 reflects the natural tone quite well..Don't think I will be switching to this new pedal.
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  #158  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:22 PM
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
On the subject of blending the LB6 with a mic, I've always been leery of that because of the phase cancellation thing. There seems to be a growing body of anecdotal evidence, however, that it works pretty well.
In my experience internal mics are so uncorrelated with another pickup that phase doesn't really enter into the picture. You can be technically in phase or out of phase and it's fine (maybe a bit like the way parts of the guitar top are out of phase with each other - it just adds to the complexity of the sound). This is why I'm able to produce stereo from the two by playing games with phase without cancellation problems. I have had issues combining pickups that are more closely correlated, like an SBT+UST, where phase issues become evident.
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  #159  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:27 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrErikJ View Post
I literally think all Bob Colosi does is buy the LB6s at a dealer rate, carefully cut off the micarta saddles, and glue on one of his saddles. So, I'm sure someone could def do it at home if they had a steady hand and saw. I don't mind micarta and Taylor uses it as their primary saddle material as it, in their opinion, seems to compare well to Tusq but saddles are all preferential. It's not expensive to get one of Colosi's LB6s .

Funny enough, re: the LB6 comparing to the Takamine palathetic pickup, that pickup was its inspiration. Lloyd Baggs has said he designed it after deconstructing some Takamine pickups and then trying to see how he could shrink it down to make it retrofit into a normal guitar. The unitary piezo design was born and while it definitely sounds better then the Fishmans of the era, Fishman found greater success as the Thinline was production line friendly. The Baggs Ribbon Transducer and later the Element were probably born so they could more easily be stock systems.
Hmm that's very interesting about the Takamine and LB6 link. Definitely making me want to try it. It's too bad Bob no longer does the LB6 mod but I do have a Taylor and tend to prefer Tusq over bone anyway. I am sure Micarta will not change the ton substantially enough to kill the projection of the guitar. I just wish I could buy the LB6 and install it myself but I am not skilled enough to shape it because doesn't it come as just a flat piece? The other thing I wonder is if it will work with the pre-existing hole I have drilled in the bottom of the bridge for the Matrix wire to go through.
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  #160  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:46 PM
MrErikJ MrErikJ is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
Hmm that's very interesting about the Takamine and LB6 link. Definitely making me want to try it. It's too bad Bob no longer does the LB6 mod but I do have a Taylor and tend to prefer Tusq over bone anyway. I am sure Micarta will not change the ton substantially enough to kill the projection of the guitar. I just wish I could buy the LB6 and install it myself but I am not skilled enough to shape it because doesn't it come as just a flat piece? The other thing I wonder is if it will work with the pre-existing hole I have drilled in the bottom of the bridge for the Matrix wire to go through.
Bob DOES still make the bone LB6s and the existing hole for a UST will usually work just fine.

The LB6 does require a good installer. My old luthier installed it and could always have it by the next day with no issues. When he moved, my first install with a new guy did not go well and required Baggs’ assistance. I definitely reco have a pro do it to ensure it doesn’t become complicated.
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  #161  
Old 01-24-2020, 05:30 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Thanks to MrErikJ and Doug for the info on blending an LB6 signal with a mic signal.

With what I have in mind, I probably wouldn't even need a Soundscape to pretty up the LB6 sound. My idea is to use the Zoom A1 Four to EQ the Lyric and to run the LB6 signal (via a PADI) to the A1 Four's AUX IN. I'd adjust for a Lyric-heavy blend and set it at the appropriate level for strumming and flatpicking. Then I could simply up the LB6 signal level when needing a higher level for bare-fingered picking. That would hopefully avoid the boominess/feedback problem (from the Lyric) when upping the level and the quackiness problem (from the LB6) when strumming or flatpicking at a lower level.
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  #162  
Old 01-24-2020, 06:42 PM
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Thanks to MrErikJ and Doug for the info on blending an LB6 signal with a mic signal.

With what I have in mind, I probably wouldn't even need a Soundscape to pretty up the LB6 sound. My idea is to use the Zoom A1 Four to EQ the Lyric and to run the LB6 signal (via a PADI) to the A1 Four's AUX IN. I'd adjust for a Lyric-heavy blend and set it at the appropriate level for strumming and flatpicking. Then I could simply up the LB6 signal level when needing a higher level for bare-fingered picking. That would hopefully avoid the boominess/feedback problem (from the Lyric) when upping the level and the quackiness problem (from the LB6) when strumming or flatpicking at a lower level.
The LB6 always seems to have a big low end, which might help out the Lyric a lot. On the other hand, Lloyd did tell me way back that they had tried the Anthem with an LB6 and it didn't work well due to the phase issues. When I said a mic+split phase pickup might not be an issue, I was thinking a real mic, not the Lyric. To me, the Lyric acts more like an SBT, and it also has tons of processing onboard, which may also be doing things with phase (who knows), so this combo may not work well. A mag should be a nice choice for beefing up a Lyric and complementing it as far as feedback resistance as well as low end enhancement.
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  #163  
Old 01-24-2020, 07:12 PM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
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That sounds like a lot of ‘ifs’, even ‘iffy’.

The Maton AP5-Pro system mixes the mic and pickup before your plug, so no good for people who need/want to blend signals in a mixer.

All the talk of dual source with internal mics make me need to tell you that to me, the mic on a movable boom in the Maton with its own volume control is what makes it. Without the mic on full and a soundhole plug, we may as well play the other quackers. The whole system including mic on boom comes in one modular interchangeable unit. TE carries a few spares in a bag, he mentions on a video, any problem and he grabs a screwdriver, yanks out the old system and puts in a new.... The link to buy a Maton system earlier doesn’t seem to have a mic on a boom arm....eek.

I have read that the early Maton pickup was err, borrowed from the Tak, and every Maton owner then plunked away with a quacker. Torn cardboard sound to me, especially loud. Nope.

No, it is the latest AP5-Pro since about 2013/4 that is the one. Nice sound pickup on its own but the mic on boom adjustability, and not forgetting maybe the most important part - the adjustable mid control!!! Also other onboard tone controls, master vol, mic vol, pickup vol...all on 2 AA batteries that last for years

If I win Lotto, that Maton Custom Shop will get real sick of me, let me tell you!

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  #164  
Old 01-24-2020, 07:53 PM
MrErikJ MrErikJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
The LB6 always seems to have a big low end, which might help out the Lyric a lot. On the other hand, Lloyd did tell me way back that they had tried the Anthem with an LB6 and it didn't work well due to the phase issues. When I said a mic+split phase pickup might not be an issue, I was thinking a real mic, not the Lyric. To me, the Lyric acts more like an SBT, and it also has tons of processing onboard, which may also be doing things with phase (who knows), so this combo may not work well. A mag should be a nice choice for beefing up a Lyric and complementing it as far as feedback resistance as well as low end enhancement.
From what I was told, the LB6’s incompatibility with the Tru-Mic was due to the crossover circuit, primarily, but I’m sure its production line unfriendliness contributed as well. Doyle Dykes’ Multiac features a LB6 with an onboard Session preamp and a Lyric you can blend to taste, so I don’t think it’s the Tru-Mic or Lyric in of themselves that are an issue with the LB6 as much as the nature of the Anthem circuit. Regardless, a good piezo or mag is a nice supplement to the Lyric if you need some low end or string detail.
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  #165  
Old 01-25-2020, 12:55 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Doug and MrEricJ,

Thanks for your further thoughts on blending the Lyric with an LB6. You've provided a lot of information to think about and consider.

One of my reasons for considering a return to the LB6 is because it has a very even string balance. I'm currently unhappy with the string balance in one of my guitars, and it has me considering replacing the David Enke-designed pickup in that guitar. It has occurred to me, however, that I should first hire a luthier to install another saddle and attempt to resolve the balance issue (if an issue still persists). I have Enke USTs in two guitars and its far-and-away my favorite pickup in the guitar which has a good string balance.

Unfortunately, my A1 Four isn't a good match for the passive Enke UST in the well-balanced rig. The A1 Four's input impedance of 470Kohms is apparently not enough to do that passive UST justice. (I tried it.) The Soundscape's input impedance of 2.2Mohms, on the other hand, would probably do the job pretty well. It would certainly work better than ToneDexter's input impedance of 1Mohm. A problem with trying to use TD for a pleasing dry signal/Dexterized signal blend with the passive Enke UST is that the dry signal is too trebly because of TD's insufficient (in this particular case) input impedance.

Last edited by guitaniac; 01-25-2020 at 01:14 PM.
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