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  #1  
Old 01-21-2020, 02:47 AM
Peter Z Peter Z is offline
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Default Schatten HFN - Martin D-18MD

Hi!

It got quiet about the Schatten HFN so I thought Iíll give a little gig report. 10 days ago, I bought 2 Martins, a D-18MD and a very nice OM-21. I put passive HFNs in both guitars.

Installation was nice quick and easy as always and worked great for the D-18MD not so much with the OM. I think I misplaced it a little bit and will do it again- maybe with the putty, the first installs were made with tape.

I tested the amplified D-18MD in my basement studio using small PA speakers (RCF Evox8). I had great results just with just a parametric EQ. I made my settings at high gig volume to avoid a bad surprise. It was the absolute best acoustic sound Iíve ever got. Just a passive pickup and the EQ!!!

Also, during the soundcheck everybody was very happy.
As the gig got louder, the guitar was resonating more and more. IThe D-18MDis a very light guitar and I could feel the vibrations a LOT! Those resonances influenced the tone quite a bit. At home I had about the same volume but I was about 5-6 meters away from the speaker thus the vibrations have not been an issue. But the stage was quite small and there are 6 of us, me standing less that one meter away from the left speaker.

It was a mistake that I only checked the sound at home and didnít simulate the speaker distance. Now I want to simulate such a situation with the use of a feedback buster in the sound hole. Letís see if that helps.

BUT: still I had the best sound ever with the D-18MD/HFN combination Ė even with all those resonances!

Peter

PS: Wanted to upload a few pics of my new ladies but there was error massage ("missing security token").
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  #2  
Old 01-21-2020, 03:30 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Thanks, Peter, and please let us know your results with the feedback buster.
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  #3  
Old 01-21-2020, 04:32 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Hi Peter,

Thanks for the thorough description of how your newly installed Schatten HFN sounds at home and how it reacts in a difficult gig situation.

The gig you described sounds like a good test situation for the new Baggs Soundscape box's anti-feedback feature. The claim is that an analysis of your guitar's frequency response enables the software to create a "feedback profile" which is used in conjunction with the Soundscape's anti-feedback dial to dial in just the right amount of feedback suppression needed for whatever the performance situation demands. In theory, at least, you could keep your tone fairly consistent by continually dialing in more feedback suppression as the sound level rises.

If the Soundscape's anti-feedback feature works as intended, it would certainly be a welcome tool for SBT users who gig in challenging environments.
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Old 01-21-2020, 07:40 AM
Peter Z Peter Z is offline
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Hi guitaniac,

would be nice if the Soundscape can handle such a problem well. I think it it just applies an EQ curve, that might be optimized to the guitars resonances. But still it will be a heavy distortion of the guitars frequency.
There is a chance that the "analog" feedback buster yields some improvement. But who knows?

I think the D-18MD is the cause:
It is a big light guitar with a large resonating top and forward shifted X-braces that are scalloped. It was made to resonate!

Probably the OM-21 is a better solution for louder gigs.

SpruceTop, i hope I can make my test next weekend. I will let you know what turned out.
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Old 01-21-2020, 08:25 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Z View Post
Hi guitaniac,

would be nice if the Soundscape can handle such a problem well. I think it it just applies an EQ curve, that might be optimized to the guitars resonances. But still it will be a heavy distortion of the guitars frequency.
There is a chance that the "analog" feedback buster yields some improvement. But who knows?

I think the D-18MD is the cause:
It is a big light guitar with a large resonating top and forward shifted X-braces that are scalloped. It was made to resonate!

Probably the OM-21 is a better solution for louder gigs.

SpruceTop, i hope I can make my test next weekend. I will let you know what turned out.

One of the reasons for my optimism about the Baggs Soundscape is that Yamaha seems to be doing the same kind of thing with the "bass" knob on their new "Atmosfeel" system. There's a paragraph in this article about how the bass knob can be used to maintain the same tone by suppressing the muddiness which would typically occur when the sound level rises and the interaction between speaker sound and the guitar top increases. There seems to be something going on here which is more fine-tuned and less compromising than a simple roll-off of the bass end.

https://hub.yamaha.com/atmosfeel-the...uitar-pickups/

Here's a description from the article about what this particular "bass" knob does:
"A little more explanation (but not much) is necessary for the final knob, Bass EQ. It controls a peaking EQ filter, which boosts or lowers particular frequencies in the low-mid range — the very kinds of frequencies that can lead to unpleasant onstage feedback when turned up too loud."

Last edited by guitaniac; 01-21-2020 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 01-21-2020, 07:14 PM
Dbrush13 Dbrush13 is offline
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Default Schatten HFN

Hi Peter, I've been gigging with the passive HFN's in both my J45 and Martin GPC 28. I've been using a feedback buster and running thru a Baggs Session DI (just EQing on my PA) I've also been getting great tone with this setup. The notch filter on the Session and the sound hole plug have been the solution for feedback in different hi volume rooms.
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Old 01-21-2020, 08:58 PM
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martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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I think the HFNs I used in gigs had the potential to sound better than my K&Ks. However, they were more feedback prone, and also had the ability to sound very thin into some PAs. So, I settled back on the K&K. But, the HFN is a great sounding pickup on many guitars. The Lyric is another bridge plate solution that is hit or miss, but can sound very good in some guitars.
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Old 01-23-2020, 01:31 PM
Peter Z Peter Z is offline
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Tested the guitar with the feedback buster and it seems to work. It wasn't real feedback that coused the problem, I mean there wasn't a volume increase on some notes. Just too much resonances that influenced the sound badly. A step before feedback.
Next time when I'm too close to the speaker and it gets loud I'll put the feedback bister in and that should solve the problem.
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Old 01-23-2020, 03:17 PM
carl_is_tall carl_is_tall is offline
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I've had my passive HFN in my D-35 for several months now and I am really happy with it. The only time I encountered feedback was at a gig where the soundguy had the pa CRANKED. It was a big room at a casino and he's used to running rock acts thru there. He turned the system down and it was all better. Super easy installation and going thru a Red Eye preamp,.. sounds great.
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Old 01-23-2020, 05:51 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
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I haven't been very active on the forum for the last couple of months but I still haven't had any issues with any of my HFN installs. In my latest guitar I'm dual sourcing the HFN with the Barbera Soloist using Schatten's Artist Plus 2 preamp and have been very happy with this setup. All of my other HFN's are passive.
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:07 AM
Peter Z Peter Z is offline
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Just an update:
I now put new strings on my OM-21 and reinstalled the HFN, this time with putty and about 2 or 3 mm closer to the neck. I should be more under the bridge now. I quite sloppy with this, now I now I shouldn't be. :-)
Much, much better results! A little goes a long way!
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Old 01-28-2020, 08:47 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarLuva View Post
I haven't been very active on the forum for the last couple of months but I still haven't had any issues with any of my HFN installs. In my latest guitar I'm dual sourcing the HFN with the Barbera Soloist using Schatten's Artist Plus 2 preamp and have been very happy with this setup. All of my other HFN's are passive.
This is quite interesting to me. Are you keeping the Soloist in reserve for high volume situations, or does it actually blend pretty well with the HFN?
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:25 AM
Daniel Grenier Daniel Grenier is offline
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I have a passive tape-mounted HFN along with a Magnetic soundhole pick up in my 000-28. The HFN on its own is too bright/tinny and the Mag too bassy/muddy but I can EQ/blend the two and get what is (to me) a rather pleasing result.

However, the one major annoyance with the HFN is the outrageous string noise I get. It is much more prone to that than any other pickups I have tried (which is not that many but still...). My playing style is not conducive to string noise as I am ultra conscious and careful about it but the odd time a finger drag is inevitable or accidental, the results are very unpleasant (I truly dislike string noise in all forms!).

Has anyone else experienced this with their HFN? If so, is the putty mount less prone to string noise?
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:56 AM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
This is quite interesting to me. Are you keeping the Soloist in reserve for high volume situations, or does it actually blend pretty well with the HFN?
That was my plan originally to use the HFN on its own and have the soloist for high volume situations. I'm using Schatten's Artist +2 preamp and the 2 pickups blend really well together. I was surprised due to the nature of the Soloist with its out of phase setup. With both set to 100% the Soloist dominates the overall sound which is not how I want to use this. However, what I found was with the HFN set at 100% I would slowly dial in the Soloist and I would guess at around 80% (tapered volume control so hard to tell exactly where it is) it adds a really nice punch to the sound which I came to love. That's how I've been using this setup for the last few weeks and I love it.
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:20 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarLuva View Post
That was my plan originally to use the HFN on its own and have the soloist for high volume situations. I'm using Schatten's Artist +2 preamp and the 2 pickups blend really well together. I was surprised due to the nature of the Soloist with its out of phase setup. With both set to 100% the Soloist dominates the overall sound which is not how I want to use this. However, what I found was with the HFN set at 100% I would slowly dial in the Soloist and I would guess at around 80% (tapered volume control so hard to tell exactly where it is) it adds a really nice punch to the sound which I came to love. That's how I've been using this setup for the last few weeks and I love it.
Very interesting. Thanks for the information, Shawn. Like you, I suspected that the Soloist's phase cancellation wiring would prevent it from blending well with an SBT. I'm glad to be wrong.
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