K&K with Play Acoustic

[wooster]

Hi

I have finally settled on a Bose S1 amp with my Martin 000 18 with K&K Pure Mini. it sounds good but I'm wondering if I can use some EQ to improve it even more.

I'm also wanting to add a vocal harmony and so I thought Play Acoustic would be the way to go but I keep hearing it doesn't do well with K&K as it doesn't allow for the mids to be cut enough. Is this actually true? Others say they work well together due to impedance matching.

The only posts I can find are from a while back and there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the Play Acoustic works in them. I'm guessing more folk will have used them and learned about them, since.

So a good match or not?

Oops should have said I also have a J45 with Bagss Element UST. Will one pre-amp work with both K7K and Baggs? Would the Play acoustic Pre-amp?

[Groberts]

Originally Posted by wooster

Hi

I have finally settled on a Bose S1 amp with my Martin 000 18 with K&K Pure Mini. it sounds good but I'm wondering if I can use some EQ to improve it even more.

I'm also wanting to add a vocal harmony and so I thought Play Acoustic would be the way to go but I keep hearing it doesn't do well with K&K as it doesn't allow for the mids to be cut enough. Is this actually true? Others say they work well together due to impedance matching.

The only posts I can find are from a while back and there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the Play Acoustic works in them. I'm guessing more folk will have used them and learned about them, since.

So a good match or not?

Oops should have said I also have a J45 with Bagss Element UST. Will one pre-amp work with both K7K and Baggs? Would the Play acoustic Pre-amp?

Yes, one pre-amp can work with the K&K and Baggs or other acoustic pickups. I use a Fishman Platinum Pro EQ Preamp with Baggs anthem in two guitars (Martin D-18 and Collings OM1A), K&K Pure Western Mini in a Martin Dread, and Fishman Aura VT Enhance in a Martin OMC-18E.

The Fishman Platinum Pro is just a preamp (Doesn't do harmonies). But it is a very effective preamp.

I tried the Bose S1 with my Martin D-18 with Baggs Anthem plugged in direct to the Bose S1. It was decent, but I also felt like my guitar might have sounded better if I had more EQ tone shaping. (Even with the Bose S1 set on the Tonematch setting. It sounded best in that mode, but still was a bit unnatural to my ears) I want to revisit the Bose S1 again however. It has a lot of promise.

[gfirob]

I have a Martin rosewood OM with K&K mini's in it, and a Play Acoustic with Body Rez. It was a pretty good combination until I discovered the Tonedexter, so now I zero out the guitar effects in the Play Acoustic (except for guitar reverb) and use the Tondexter to process the pickup's signal. It is way better. I would warrant a guess that for anybody that has actually heard the Tondexter in action, it has proven to be the best way to get the genuine sound of your guitar out of an amplifier, in most cases IMHO.

[wooster]

The Tonedexter I know about but can't afford at the moment. Over here in the UK it's over $600!

So basically I could stick any preamp (like a K&K proprietary one) in front of the Play and use it with the guitar effects in Play dialled out? I thought maybe piling preamps one ofter the other might not be a good idea for some reason. I'm pretty ignorant of such things though.

Thank you both for your help

Do I need to worry about impedance matching?

[troggg]

Originally Posted by wooster

I thought Play Acoustic would be the way to go but I keep hearing it doesn't do well with K&K as it doesn't allow for the mids to be cut enough. Is this actually true? Others say they work well together due to impedance matching.

I'm not the world's most foremost expert on EQ, but I have a Play Acoustic and a K&K and you have described two myths.

In reverse order, there will not be an impedance mismatch between TCPA and K&K ... the only variable which could create one is whatever device(s) you're using for amplification.

I'm not going to tell you that the TCPA is the absolute easiest way to EQ a K&K equipped guitar -- cause it has no knobs and it requires a modicum of menu diving -- but there is no way your guitar won't sound a lot better going through the Play Acoustic than straight through the Bose S1.

I'm not here to tell you there is no possible better way to get where you want to go -- because there are so many combinations you could explore -- but when you consider all the variables like price and what a TCPA does for vocals, it's a pretty strong contender.

[Groberts]

Originally Posted by wooster

The Tonedexter I know about but can't afford at the moment. Over here in the UK it's over $600!

So basically I could stick any preamp (like a K&K proprietary one) in front of the Play and use it with the guitar effects in Play dialled out? I thought maybe piling preamps one ofter the other might not be a good idea for some reason. I'm pretty ignorant of such things though.

Thank you both for your help

Do I need to worry about impedance matching?

If you're simply looking for ease of EQ and notch filtering, you might look into the Baggs Align EQ. That would give you ease of tone shaping and also has some notch filtering (for feedback) ... if that's an issue (or if the TC Play Acoustic does not have that).

As another poster shared, the Play Acoustic may very well have EQ and tone shaping features, but you have to dive into menu's to get there. That may not be as user friendly in different venues when you just want to turn a knob to dial certain frequency ranges up or down to suit the room acoustic needs.

[wooster]

Originally Posted by troggg

I'm not the world's most foremost expert on EQ, but I have a Play Acoustic and a K&K and you have described two myths.

In reverse order, there will not be an impedance mismatch between TCPA and K&K ... the only variable which could create one is whatever device(s) you're using for amplification.

I'm not going to tell you that the TCPA is the absolute easiest way to EQ a K&K equipped guitar -- cause it has no knobs and it requires a modicum of menu diving -- but there is no way your guitar won't sound a lot better going through the Play Acoustic than straight through the Bose S1.

I'm not here to tell you there is no possible better way to get where you want to go -- because there are so many combinations you could explore -- but when you consider all the variables like price and what a TCPA does for vocals, it's a pretty strong contender.

Hi Trogg. Thank you. I am likely to give it a go as it seems to offer so much. BTW I wasn't suggesting there was an impedance mismatch I was saying the impedance was actually matched very well and exactly what the K&K requires.

[wooster]

Originally Posted by Groberts

If you're simply looking for ease of EQ and notch filtering, you might look into the Baggs Align EQ. That would give you ease of tone shaping and also has some notch filtering (for feedback) ... if that's an issue (or if the TC Play Acoustic does not have that).

As another poster shared, the Play Acoustic may very well have EQ and tone shaping features, but you have to dive into menu's to get there. That may not be as user friendly in different venues when you just want to turn a knob to dial certain frequency ranges up or down to suit the room acoustic needs.

I'm a bit concerned about the Baggs as it seems to have a much higher input impedance than K&K recommend. If I had an EQ either such as the Baggs or a pedal would I simply put it before the Play Acoustic and set the Play Acoustic effects to zero ( or change them if I wanted, I suppose )

I'm wondering if an EQ pedal might be a good idea. I'm a bit confused about the desirablitliy of lining up what would amount to 3 pre-amps in a row without any ill effect. Am I worrying needlessly?

[troggg]

Originally Posted by wooster

I was saying the impedance was actually matched very well and exactly what the K&K requires.

Sorry, looks like my mind added a "mis" in front of "match" not that I'm a confused individual or anything

[gfirob]

If you want TC Helicon's idea of what is going to make your guitar sound better with a pickup, then it is a good choice. They simplify it for you in Body Rez (which to me is a good thing) leaving some available tweaking. I thought it sounded pretty good and when you consider that they give you very sophisticated voice processing, harmonies, reverb (for both voice and guitar) and a looper, its a pretty good deal. I just thought the Tonedexter did a better job on the guitar end.

[wooster]

Thank you people.

Troggg I know all about confusion from personal experience

gfirob I wondered if on it's own Play would be able to scoop the low mids the way it seems needed for K&K. If you were happy with the results you got, it seems to work well enough and I I will try the Play on it's own for a while.

I notice there's a bunch fo downloads available for the Play so maybe I will also be able to add something from there that will be useful. Anyway, I will try the Play out on my return from holiday and see how it goes.

Thank you all for your help

[wooster]

Actually just a thought. Is it possible to use the Play Acoustic without plugging the guitar in at all and simply having vocal harmonies and effects? I'm guessing so and just set the key manually. This would take the pre-amp and processing for guitar out of the equation. would there be any advantage in this at all? As I type I'm imagining not but I thought I would ask anyway.

[martingitdave]

The TC Play Acoustic is ideally suited for the K&K pure mini passive pickup. The input impedance is 1M Ohm and the multi band parametric eq is fully customizable (albeit menu driven). I started a thread on this topic last month. Do a quick search and you should find it. Also, the magic of that device is that it listens to the chord changes for the vocal harmonies. Honestly, if you can manage to scroll through 3 or 4 menus to initially setup the TCPA, it's hard to imagine you not being happy with it.

Making the K&K sound better in a loud Martin
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=511520

[troggg]

Originally Posted by gfirob

If you want TC Helicon's idea of what is going to make your guitar sound better with a pickup, then it is a good choice. They simplify it for you in Body Rez (which to me is a good thing) leaving some available tweaking. I thought it sounded pretty good and when you consider that they give you very sophisticated voice processing, harmonies, reverb (for both voice and guitar) and a looper, its a pretty good deal. I just thought the Tonedexter did a better job on the guitar end.

I agree that it's even better on voice; I liked what a Mesa Rosette did for guitar more for sure. Of course one of those costs $1,000 and isn't a boat anchor but it is a brainer as opposed to a no-brainer to carry around.

But now let's examine a real world scenario. Say you're one of three artists playing out at an average sized bar (this really isn't the forum for what to do if you're James Taylor playing at major venues). You've got a Play Acoustic. Artist One has a Grace Felix. Artist Two is using a Bose T4s. If all three of you play your best, the audience is going to enjoy all of you ... even though you paid a whole lot less for the Play Acoustic. That's really the bottom line.

I got my Play Acoustic cause my Bose L1C onboard tonematch just doesn't sound very good with my K&K-equipped Collings CJ35. It clearly needed some low mids cut. Enter the Play Acoustic. Is it the ultimate EQ? No. But it cut the low mids perfectly fine to a point I was enjoying what I was playing. And the vocals are five times better than on the Rosette. There ya go.

[gfirob]

Just to be clear, the Play Acoustic needs the guitar input for the reference to create the harmonies (more convenient than setting it manually, which you consider how often we change keys). But you can zero out the guitar effects (as I do when I use the Tonedexter). In my case I leave in the guitar reverb which is a good one. But I think the Play Acoustic is really a good deal when you consider how many functions it provides (and how many addition pedals you don't need to have).