#16
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My spidey sense always begins to tingle whenever someone says "sub-harmonic". ^^ This is where the proverbial rubber meets the road. All else is irrelevant. |
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#18
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It was nice of him to take the time to give you such a detailed response... Reading his comments I circle back to this idea of the guitar's inherent limitations (and imperfections) being a thing that gives it a distinct and beautiful tone. There is a camp of luthiers (Bob Taylor and Andy Powers included) that have been on a quest to make the guitar more piano like. I understand why for some players that would be a highly desired thing, but while it may get the instrument closer to perfection in a mathematical sense, I find a great deal of personality in those overtones and undertones that bring the pitch just a little off. There's something more organic to it and something very distinctive about it that says "I'm an acoustic guitar".
In the end we get back to the subjective nature of timbre/tonal character. Putting the math aside do these changes that lead closer to "perfection" enhance the tone of the instrument. If the overtones and undertones are being evened out/corrected I'd image it would take their timbre further away from what I'm looking for out of a guitar.
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Wayne J-45 song of the day archive https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis..._Zmxz51NAwG1UJ My music https://soundcloud.com/waynedeats76 https://www.facebook.com/waynedeatsmusic My guitars Gibson, Martin, Blueridge, Alvarez, Takamine Last edited by Rmz76; 03-07-2018 at 08:19 PM. |
#19
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I'm really not sure what to make of this thread, but I'd offer my thanks to everyone who contributed.
I tend to agree with whoever mentioned 'where the rubber meets the road' -- until I've played the V braces myself, I can't offer much on the topic of their sound, but people who I trust have had very, very good things to say about them. That being said, I'm very hesitant to rush to conclusions, whether that be "this is just a marketing scheme, drink the Kool Aid, etc" -- OR, "this is revolutionary, redefining innovation, blabla". As with most things, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. My opinion of Andy Powers doesn't matter, necessarily, but I get a weird vibe from him overall. That being said, I like him, and I believe him to be extremely passionate about what he does, and the guitars themselves speak their results. Not to get lengthy or off topic, but.. I would be curious to learn more about acoustics in general and the properties of sound, I'm wondering if anyone has a good resource to point a beginner to, as all this is very interesting to me. I'm not necessarily technically inclined, but I'm no dunce either, and I'd like to understand better the physics of what makes our guitars so beautiful. I also agree with whoever said that there's a certain 'character' to an acoustic guitar.. and trying to mathematically perfect every aspect of it may ultimately rob it of some of its charm (of course I'm paraphrasing). Anyway. Thanks again for a thoughtful read, and thanks for posting your response from Andy P. I'm headed to the Taylor show a week from Saturday (Fuller's Guitar, March 17th, Houston) and I'm hoping to A/B a couple V-brace vs. non... and maybe I'll be able to put that 614ce that's been haunting me on layaway Cheers
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2003 Washburn WD44S | Sitka/Hawaiian koa 2018 Gibson J-45 Vintage | Torrefied Adi/Mahogany 2015 Gibson Wildwood AJ New Vintage | Adi/EIR Fishman | Loudbox Mini | Primetone 1.0mm "what is the universe? the universe is a symphony of vibrating strings.." -michio kaku |
#20
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Will there come a time when this will be a thing of the past?
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Something something, beer is good, and people are crazy. |
#21
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undertone_series Last edited by Seagull S6; 03-07-2018 at 08:22 PM. |
#22
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To the group that is all in on getting the guitar as close to intonated perfection as possible (regardless if the end result takes us further from that signature acoustic sound), I would question just how much the new V-Class bracing gets us to the desired piano like result than X-bracing. Taylor has only claimed that it gets the guitar closer to these targets Andy identified than Taylor's X-bracing before, but he has been careful not to talkin quantifiable terms and drop percentages, etc... No doubt these are measurements Taylor has taken and could release if they wanted to. Even if V-Class bracing got say 5% closer that would be all marketing would probably need to champion pushing this "Better intonation" idea. Who knows? I think if he's going to take the discussion to a deeper technical level as he has and as he's going to be forced to in the coming months as players and builders are interested (I'm certain third-parties will listening careful to Andy's comments and taking measurements between the 2017 and 2018 models that apply). Looking forward to finally putting hands on one of these new Taylor models next week.
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Wayne J-45 song of the day archive https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis..._Zmxz51NAwG1UJ My music https://soundcloud.com/waynedeats76 https://www.facebook.com/waynedeatsmusic My guitars Gibson, Martin, Blueridge, Alvarez, Takamine |
#23
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#24
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Until I play about three dozen V-Braced Taylors, I'll have some idea if I like the concept.
Reading the opinions of those that haven't played about three dozen V-Braced Taylors, is a monumental waste of my time, if I think I'll learn anything from reading those opinions. So keep a good attitude since most of what you're reading is for entertainment purposes only, and isn't meant to imply knowledge of the subject.
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McCollum Grand Auditorum Euro Spruce/Brazilian PRS Hollowbody Spruce PRS SC58 Giffin Vikta Gibson Custom Shop ES 335 '59 Historic RI ‘91 Les Paul Standard ‘52 AVRI Tele - Richie Baxt build Fender American Deluxe Tele Fender Fat Strat |
#25
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Some of the references Andy was making are similar to harmonic and intermodulation distortion common in audio and radio frequency electronics.
He's going to need to demonstrate what he's talking about with spectrum analysis as to how that makes his design superior. I've never felt like I was being BSed when Bob Taylor presented a new idea like I do now. He really should have stuck with "we made it different and we think it sounds better".
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Bourgeois, Collings, R Taylor, Santa Cruz |
#26
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I have no problem with guitars as they have always existed.
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Something something, beer is good, and people are crazy. |
#27
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I've studied the complexities of sound produced by stringed instruments for a long time, and even though Andy Powers is using terminology that is sometimes more associated with layman's explanations the science is basically sound. When you study the physics of sound it quickly becomes obvious that there's a lot more going on "under the hood" than what it appears from only having a cursory understanding of the complexities of sound produced from a stringed instrument. When you start breaking down complex waveforms with techniques such as Fourier Analysis you begin to understand that each new harmonic of the primary tone has generated lower level frequencies that are sums and differences of each of the frequencies and harmonics, with those in turn generating even more partials and "sub-harmonics" of those frequencies generated as a result of the sums and differences of THOSE partials. It doesn't take long before all this gets way beyond the ability to grasp the mechanics easily. Then you have to figure out what the instrument itself is doing with those complex frequencies. That's what Andy Powers is chasing, and his logic is firmly rooted in a good basic grasp on what may influence all this stuff happening behind the scenes. Make no mistake, this isn't something that it would be easy to tame the outcome of. I personally would suspect that a long history of experimentation by Andy Powers (and company) has resulted in a fortuitous, and possibly purely lucky, outcome. Time, and feedback from a lot of players, will really tell if it's ultimately a "game-changer" or not. I'd be fairly skeptical, and I'm a huge Taylor fan. I DO think it deserves a fair evaluation, and not the brush-off I've seen from some of the naysayers who might not give a fair chance to anything that may (or may not) improve the volume, tone, or robust design of the instrument that we all love so much. |
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I read the first part of his response and thought he is saying the right thing without getting too much in the technical side of resonating systems. I think he left out one bit that would have helped but no big deal. Where I started to be let down is when he got to this.
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Fred Last edited by Kerbie; 03-08-2018 at 03:10 AM. Reason: Edited content |
#29
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Last edited by Kerbie; 03-08-2018 at 03:11 AM. Reason: Edited quote |
#30
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It would be interesting to me if someone with access to these things would check for "Wolf-Tones" and what frequencies (if any) they occur at.
Wolf-Tones are known to be a "Real-Thing" accepted by most everyone that plays or builds a stringed instrument. My Taylor (a prototype with non-production bracing) has a marked "Wolf-Tone" at F# (on low E string) |