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  #31  
Old 04-19-2018, 07:32 AM
Riakstonic Riakstonic is offline
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Sorry to hear that Larry F212’s are great guitars . You could stop by LTG Never know when one of us will put one up for sale or know where one is at that is for sale .
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  #32  
Old 04-19-2018, 07:37 AM
ship of fools ship of fools is offline
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Well Larry old friend that really bites the big one especially when you find one in great shape its not like there are hundreds out there to replace it with.
If I find something up here will let you know but they are hard to find guitars but will keep my eyes and ears open for you bud. ship
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  #33  
Old 04-19-2018, 07:55 AM
GangstaPat GangstaPat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
True...actually, Larry 1, GC 0, and vintage Guilds -1...

...but I feel that *I* am really the loser...it was a good example of a fairly well-cared for guitar from 1977. It made it 41 years, and then GC maimed it for life. Sigh.
Exactly how I feel. It's Guitar Denter 0 - Guitar Lovers 0. We all loose when this happens to wonderful old instruments. Or in the case of Musician's Friend new ones.
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  #34  
Old 04-19-2018, 08:07 AM
evenkeel evenkeel is offline
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Ouch that hurts and that's a bit of damage I know all to well. I have a 1969 Guild F-212. Years ago I was playing at a farmers market. The F-212 sitting on a stand while I was playing a 6 string. Big gust of wind, down the F-212 goes. Face plant on the asphalt. One of the worst noises in the universe. The back side headstock was cracked right behind the nut. Classic smile shaped crack. But.... after some careful clamping and gluing I was able to repair it. A year or so later I had the neck reset and other indignities fixed. The repair guy who did that job pronounced my repair work very solid, albeit a bit cosmetically challenged. He was able to work some magic a make it much less visible.

I assume the guitar is on it's way back to GC. But, that kind of repair can be dealt with fairly easily. So maybe it's worth it to see if GC will let you buy it a VERY reduced price and then get it fixed.
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  #35  
Old 04-19-2018, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Walker View Post
Eh. Larrivee and Taylor ship orders of magnitude more guitars than all those people combined, and ship at full tension.

But I don't want to hijack the thread any more than I already have so I'll stop here.
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  #36  
Old 04-19-2018, 08:44 AM
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I can't remember my last guitar purchase from GC. I find that they're kind of becoming the Wal-Mart of music stores. I'll go in there to look at guitars in person but even if I find myself interested in purchasing in the moment, they NEVER have any stock. It's always the floor model and they offer to knock 10% off the price.

I played a 110ce last week and when I asked if they had stock in the back, the salesmen promptly said they did not. I showed him a couple of dings on the model I was holding and he quickly offered 10% off. If they aren't stocking multiple 110s, then they're DEFINITELY not stocking any of their more expensive guitars..so what's on the wall is what you get.

Sorry about your experience, Larry. Such a bummer to have to ride that emotional rollercoaster. I have a feeling it will work out for you in the end, I think karma works both ways!
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  #37  
Old 04-19-2018, 08:51 AM
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When a guitar, inside a case, inside a box falls forward or backward, there is a significant chance of breaking the headstock due to the weight of the tuners. When tuned to pitch (especially when falling forward) the string tension greatly increases the chances of breaking that headstock. No one can refute that based on simple physics, but if there is an alternate explanation that works I'd love to hear it. The only way to protect the headstock is to immobilize it inside the guitar case.

Most manufacturers do not do this because the cumulative time required to do so is more expensive than replacing a neck once in a while. Most dealers don't do it for the same reasons. EVERY repairman who routinely repairs and ships vintage and other high end guitars I've ever asked about this indicates that their goal is always to immobilize the guitar inside the case, especially the headstock, before packing the case inside the box. Most detune two full steps or so.

That does nothing to help Larry, but may help someone else, so there it is.
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  #38  
Old 04-19-2018, 09:18 AM
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Larry Pattis Larry Pattis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogthefrog View Post
Full tension is the only thing they did right.

The breakage was likely due to a drop with the weight of the tuners making it worse. The string pull is what kept the headstock from breaking clean off the neck.

That said, it sucks and I hope you arrive at an acceptable solution.

I'm curious what specifically made you seek out a Guild, given your existing inventory of fine guitars.

In regards to your initial comment, I can't agree with this at all. I believe that Todd Yates gets it 100% correct, below.

FYI, the F-212 is a SJ-sized 12-string. I haven't owned a 12-string guitar since about 1991 (or '92).

Guild is well known amongst 12-string players as building some of the best, terrific, and greatest sounding 12-ers. There is a particular "growl" that their mahogany back & sides models get.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Riakstonic View Post
Sorry to hear that Larry F212’s are great guitars . You could stop by LTG Never know when one of us will put one up for sale or know where one is at that is for sale .

Yeah, thanks...I put up a WTB post there the other day.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
When a guitar, inside a case, inside a box falls forward or backward, there is a significant chance of breaking the headstock due to the weight of the tuners. When tuned to pitch (especially when falling forward) the string tension greatly increases the chances of breaking that headstock. No one can refute that based on simple physics, but if there is an alternate explanation that works I'd love to hear it. The only way to protect the headstock is to immobilize it inside the guitar case.

Most manufacturers do not do this because the cumulative time required to do so is more expensive than replacing a neck once in a while. Most dealers don't do it for the same reasons. EVERY repairman who routinely repairs and ships vintage and other high end guitars I've ever asked about this indicates that their goal is always to immobilize the guitar inside the case, especially the headstock, before packing the case inside the box. Most detune two full steps or so.

That does nothing to help Larry, but may help someone else, so there it is.
Perfect, Todd.

In this case (no pun), the guitar was not properly stabilized *inside* the case, and the entire case itself had zero padding at either end of the ridiculously small box that it was in.

I surmise that the box had some impact at the headstock end, the guitar abruptly moved in the case, with the headstock hitting the upper interior of the case, and this snapped it in half.

All the string tension is pulling the headstock that direction, as well, so I don't really "get" what Roger is thinking. Apologies.

Shame on the folks at the Sarasota GC that packed the darned guitar.
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  #39  
Old 04-19-2018, 09:29 AM
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Certainly the undersized box didn't help at all. My intent was not to discount the importance of a good box and padding, but to emphasize the importance of packing inside the case.

Now, think about the weight of that 12 string headstock and tuners. It's no wonder it was damaged considering the packing you described!
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  #40  
Old 04-19-2018, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Pattis View Post
Shame on the folks at the Sarasota GC that packed the darned guitar.
Pretty sure it was the Sarasota GC I spoke to when there was a '41 D-18 Authentic listed at a fab price. In the conversation with them I was told it did not have a case and I asked how they would ship such a guitar without a case.

Bubble wrap.

Pass.
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  #41  
Old 04-19-2018, 03:17 PM
billyrum2 billyrum2 is offline
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I bought a '78 F 212 used from GC 2 years ago. The pice was fair, the guitar was great. I don,t love GC, but...like everything else, sometimes they are just fine. I,m glad they are still there, they do provide a chance to play different brands and carry more than small dealers. Their return policy is much more than fair.
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  #42  
Old 04-19-2018, 06:38 PM
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Bummer. Sorry to hear how they botched this one!
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  #43  
Old 04-19-2018, 08:20 PM
AZLiberty AZLiberty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Walker View Post
I'll respectfully disagree with this. There are a number of dealers who loosen the strings before shipping. The first piece of sage advice - of dozens of examples - comes from Gruhn Guitars:
And both Bob Taylor and Jean Larrivee say it's safer to ship tuned up to concert because it protects the neck better from impacts. (and Martin ships everything fully tuned).
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  #44  
Old 04-20-2018, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by AZLiberty View Post
And both Bob Taylor and Jean Larrivee say it's safer to ship tuned up to concert because it protects the neck better from impacts. (and Martin ships everything fully tuned).
Post #37 explains why that is wrong thinking, and why it works for manufacturers but does not protect the guitar.

As I said above, a fall forward with strings tuned to pitch INCREASES the force acting to break the headstock. When someone can show me why that is wrong, I'll turn in my engineering license and go home.
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  #45  
Old 04-20-2018, 09:07 AM
jjrpilot jjrpilot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
Post #37 explains why that is wrong thinking, and why it works for manufacturers but does not protect the guitar.

As I said above, a fall forward with strings tuned to pitch INCREASES the force acting to break the headstock. When someone can show me why that is wrong, I'll turn in my engineering license and go home.

Todd, because this is a forum. You are wrong and your engineering degree is meaningless.

JK. I agree with you. I would think MORE tension = more pressure built up etc.
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