are professional players better musicians than non-professionals?

[The Bard Rocks]

Stage presence and patter has nothing to do with anyone being better musician (this concert violinist). But it has a lot to do with earning mone.

Speaking in broad terms a professional tends to be a better musician than others. Lots and lots of exceptions. In both directions. there are somkegret musicians who like to be home qt night, or discovered they could earn more money doing something else. and lot of notallthatgood professionals who really don't ply or sing especially well. but they have something else to offer that helps to make up for it.

[Pnewsom]

In many cases I prefer the term working musician over professional musician. Also, I see a distinction with the term entertainer verses artist.

I've known and worked with lots of entertainers over the years, many who are mediocre musicians at best, but they can hold a crowd in the palm of their hand. Some of them develop big egos, and can be a pain to work with, others are great.

Artists on the other hand are different in that they create a body of work(compositions/recordings, etc.) over time. They can be excellent musicians and great entertainers, or not.

Then there are musicians who back up/support artists and entertainers. Usually they have their playing chops down cold, have great ears, can read charts, understand their role, and have the ability to deliver the goods night after night. They exhibit their professionalism through dependability, solidness, and great musicality, which sets them apart from many amateurs.

These are the kind of musicians I call professionals and they are usually more skilled in all aspects of the business than most amateurs because they made it their business to. They likely studied music at college or university level, though not necessarily. They usually have great people skills as well.

Bottom line, there many ways to be a musician and they are all good in the context of what you are trying to accomplish. Play on!

[zmf]

Originally Posted by islandguitar

Livingston Taylor was the best I've ever seen in concert providing this whole package....he was amazing in all categories as a complete musician/performer.

Musical knowledge and technique aside for a moment, a good professional is a performer, and how good a performer you are depends partly on who you are -- your personality. If you have the personality to be a performer, you may not be the best player, but your personality can override that.

There must be many great player who are not, or do not wish to become, great performers, or become professional.

As Island said, the whole package is a delight to see and hear.

[Mr. Jelly]

Go get a gig and see how your musicianship increases. Let us know how that works. Are paid speakers better communicators then everyone else?

[shakejfran]

I mean there's always this guy



And there's always this guy

[Glennwillow]

There are probably a fairly high percentage of people here on the AGF who have been paid to play in public on at least one occasion. There's a very big difference between that level of professionalism compared to someone who actually makes his living making music.

If a person is good enough to make his living making music, then he/she is probably a higher level musician compared to most of us here on the AGF. There are always exceptions to any rule, of course.

- Glenn

[Silly Moustache]

Some of my biggest singer- songwriters were neither great singers nor guitarists, they just had the skill to make it come together.

I've seen some rely outstanding semi-pros, and "pros that never got famous.

I think that the secret is mainly repetition. Do it every night for a few weeks, months years, and those numbers sing/play themselves.

I "semi" joke that my hands do the thinking for me, which they do, as I concentrate on trying to deliver the lyrics and tell the story, - and tend to leave my hands to play the accompaniment, bass lines etc., but I'm often playing the same numbers I did twenty (or more) years ago, although sometimes I don't touch a guitar for days.

I imagine a travelling pro, becomes even more "automatic."

However, being one of those "finger starers" (as Stefan Grossman calls them) in the front row, I have seen some of the finest make mistakes. The artistry is not showing the trips.

A very deservedly respected British singer-songwriter - Steve Tilston (see below) once said to me that whilest he calls himself a pro singer-guitarist, he is really a long distance driver because he does far more driving from on gig to another, than he does singing or playing, but he does his two 45s every night ... somewhere.

See

[Wade Hampton]

There’s a wide range of musical ability among working musicians, just as there’s an (even wider) range of abilities among amateur players. But being able to get up in front of a possibly indifferent audience takes more musicianship and skill than perhaps some amateurs realize: it’s not just stage patter and presence and showmanship skills: you’d better be able to really play if you want them to listen.

I’m fortunate in that I’ve always been able to get up in front of a crowd and hold their attention; not everyone has that sort of stage presence and, quite frankly, I have no idea of how to acquire it if you don’t have it already.

But I do have it and use it when I play. At least partially a result, I’ve always made money playing music once I got past the total beginner stage.

I do think good performers have either a natural instinct or else the analytical ability to figure out how to pace a performance and build on it as the show goes on; in my case I think it’s a bit of both. I know many performers work off carefully thought out set lists, but I’ve always found that I can work a crowd better just by seeing how they’re responding and then taking things from there.

Anyway, returning to whether one or the other group are better musicians, that’s kind of like asking: “Are blondes better-looking than redheads?” The answer, of course, is that it depends on the individuals in question.

I know that my level of musicianship was generally higher when I was gigging several hours a night, but I still keep my hand in and still gig out regularly, so I think I’m doing okay.

I’m still getting paid for it, too, so I must be doing SOMETHING right!


Wade Hampton Miller

[Tony Burns]

good and bad of both -doesnt mean anything-
but IMO its having the ba((s to play out -

[geewhiz]

I've heard some pretty lousy "professionals".

[merlin666]

One has to be at a certain level of skill and commitment to even become a professional musician. From then on the professionals can spend 12 or more hours each day for practice, recording, teaching, composing, performing etc. that normal mortals have to waste on earning a living and other mundane tasks. That makes a huge difference.

[geewhiz]

Originally Posted by zmf

Musical knowledge and technique aside for a moment, a good professional is a performer...

There are a lot of absolutely stellar session players who might disagree with that statement. As do I

Thanks guys. Really enjoying the discussion and reading your responses. This is what I was hoping for when posting this slightly inflammatory thread.

[Brent Hahn]

To me, working pros are generally more poised, adaptable, punctual, and pleasant. And most of them know how to be an accompanist when it's called for, although I could make you a long list of the ones I know who don't.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by geewhiz

I've heard some pretty lousy "professionals".

Of course, just as you’ve heard painfully untalented amateurs, as well (if you haven’t, it’s obvious that you’ve never given private lessons...) But I don’t think it’s outlandishly exaggerated to say that the general level of musicianship among professional musicians is higher than among those who don’t play out in front of audiences. Not necessarily dramatically higher, but higher nonetheless.


whm