LB6/Soloist vs. UST

[Petty1818]

There's been a lot of discussion lately about the LB6 and Barbera Soloist and I am definitely intrigued by these types of pickups. I recently went back to the Matrix/Aura set up and have been fairly happy. My main complaint is that at times UST pickups can sound a bit thin.

I am just wondering what the main appeal of the LB6 and Soloist are? I mentioned this a few times in different threads and the main comment has been the string balance/separation. That part is nice already but does anyone find these pickups to sound a bit more full/round when compared to a UST? I always remember back to when I used to play Takamine guitars. It didn't matter what type of guitar was used, it could be the smallest Takamine available, but it always sounded big through a PA.

I find the LB6 in demos tends to have a very big/full tone but I have been fooled by demos before. I just thought I would open up the discussion a bit. Now I know both the Soloist and LB6 will quack and they both have a piezo tone to them. However, as mentioned, I am using the Matrix and whatever I go to, I will be using the Aura or Tonedexter so just looking for the best pickup to start with.

[MrErikJ]

All pickups can sound good when applied properly but I do tend to prefer the LB6 over most USTs, including the Matrix. I haven't tried the Soloist but it seems like a "next gen" LB6 and is probably superior. Personally, I feel the unitary saddle piezo has less "quack" then a traditional UST and is much "meatier" or "fat" sounding with a less harsh high-end. My perception is that there's less distortion and buzzing caused by an intrasaddle design because of the slightly decoupled nature of a saddle altered to sit upon a transducer, not to mention the pressure on said piezo. The LB6 has a warm sound with good balance and will sound perfectly fine with just some EQ and basic effects. Adding a mic goes a long way as well. From all I've seen, the Soloist is even better and both designs are very feedback resistant.

Personally, for 89 bucks, I think the original LB6 is hard to beat but some people don't like the way it alters their acoustic tone. YMMV with that as I think that's a very case by case and guitar by guitar issue. Most of my installs, I haven't perceived a change but there was one guitar I felt lost its brightness with it installed. I installed a Bob Colosi bone-top LB6 into my Yamaha LL16 and I didn't like the acoustic sound as much and my LS16 sounded BETTER after installing a standard LB6. Like all saddles, it's kinda hit and miss and dumb luck as to whether it sounds better or worse after install.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

All pickups can sound good when applied properly but I do tend to prefer the LB6 over most USTs, including the Matrix. I haven't tried the Soloist but it seems like a "next gen" LB6 and is probably superior. Personally, I feel the unitary saddle piezo has less "quack" then a traditional UST and is much "meatier" or "fat" sounding with a less harsh high-end. My perception is that there's less distortion and buzzing caused by an intrasaddle design because of the slightly decoupled nature of a saddle altered to sit upon a transducer, not to mention the pressure on said piezo. The LB6 has a warm sound with good balance and will sound perfectly fine with just some EQ and basic effects. Adding a mic goes a long way as well. From all I've seen, the Soloist is even better and both designs are very feedback resistant.

Personally, for 89 bucks, I think the original LB6 is hard to beat but some people don't like the way it alters their acoustic tone. YMMV with that as I think that's a very case by case and guitar by guitar issue. Most of my installs, I haven't perceived a change but there was one guitar I felt lost its brightness with it installed. I installed a Bob Colosi bone-top LB6 into my Yamaha LL16 and I didn't like the acoustic sound as much and my LS16 sounded BETTER after installing a standard LB6. Like all saddles, it's kinda hit and miss and dumb luck as to whether it sounds better or worse after install.

Thanks! It's interesting, I hear a lot that the Soloist is most likely a superior pickup yet in demos, I tend to find the LB6 to have a fatter, warmer tone. Obviously the benefit of the Soloist is that I could install it myself where as the LB6 is a bit more involved in terms of experimenting. With that said, my Taylor is actually a bright guitar to begin with. I tried bone once (it was with the Anthem installed so not sure if that was part of it), and my guitar was just far too harsh. I typically stick with Tusq which is what the guitar shipped with in 2005. However, I have tried Micarta as well and have been considering it anyway to warm up the acoustic tone. Generally I am big on tonal changes but this seems like one that could actually be quite good.

If I were LR Baggs, I would offer the LB6 with Tusq or bone, as those are the two most common saddles, and then find a way to pair it with the Tru-mic. I know they have tried this and found it didn't work but if they could pair the two, it would be an amazing dual source. I just find the element changes the acoustic tone for the worse and I just don't like the tone of it to begin with.

[lkingston]

I think part of why I like the LB6 sound so much is that it sounds like the James Taylor/Janis Ian/Phil Keaggy/Doyle Dykes live sound I fell in love with growing up.

[guitaniac]

I've used the LB6 in three guitars and the Barbera Soloist in one. At this point I prefer the David Enke UST because its more top-responsive and less quacky with heavy strumming. The downside, for the Enke UST, is that its more vulnerable to feedback. I can easily see how someone who is primarily a fingerstylist might prefer the LB6 or the Soloist.

If it turns out that the Soundscape can put the LB6 and the Soloist on equal terms with the Enke UST (in regard to tone and minimizing quack), I can easily see myself going back to the LB6 or the Soloist.

If I do go back to LB6 or Soloist, I'll have it installed by a pro and be sure that the saddle is properly shaped (if that's possible with the Soloist) to conform to the guitar's fretboard radius. I've learned the hard way that its a bad idea to use a saddle that's shaped for a Taylor or a Martin on a guitar with a 12" fretboard radius.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

…I find the LB6 in demos tends to have a very big/full tone but I have been fooled by demos before. I just thought I would open up the discussion a bit. Now I know both the Soloist and LB6 will quack and they both have a piezo tone to them. However, as mentioned, I am using the Matrix and whatever I go to, I will be using the Aura or Tonedexter so just looking for the best pickup to start with.

Hi P1818

The LB-6 is six individual piezos mounted in a brass blank topped by micarta, and it's thicker/deeper (front-to-back) than a normal saddle blank. The piezos must be aligned carefully to match string width, and the saddle has to be routed not only for flatness, but the added depth of the saddle blank.

I played one for 11 years in my Olson (as part of a Baggs Dual Source rig for the last 7 years) before switching to a K&K Pure Mini. I switched to the K&K because heard a Pure Mini in a custom built Larrivee played live for a concert just plugged straight into an UltraSound AG-50 amp with no preamp. It sounded superior to my LB-6 through the Baggs internal preamp. My Olson benefitted when my luthier had to build me a custom saddle, and intonate it after the LB-6 was removed. And the guitar sounds better with a bone saddle in it versus a Brass blank topped with micarta.

Without a preamp, an LB-6 is still a quacker. Expected of any under saddle piezo, be it film, the metal strip kind, or coaxial. The K&K Pure Mini is 3 Piezo elements placed in some kind of domed hard transparent material, and it is the least prone to quacking of any piezo I've ever used. And the addition of a preamp cures the quack issues anyway.

After 15 years of using the K&K dual source rigs (passive K&K & Internal mic), I recently upgraded to the ToneDexter. I'm driving it with the K&K Pure Mini. I decided to leave the mics installed in all 4 of my acoustics, and the preamps are stored in my guitar cabinet in the music room as a backup should the ToneDexter fail or need repairs etc.

The role of the LB-6 was to provide the bottom end of my sound, and the internal mic the clarity and 'air'. The LB-6 with Bagg's internal dual source preamp (added 5 years after the Olson moved in with us) were a solid live rig. But the 'something missing' was improved when I upgraded my pickup and internal mic to the K&K, and added external preamps.

I suspect the reason Keaggy sounds so great on stage has something to do with the Pendulum preamp in his rack (in addition to the Baggs Duet in his guitars). A $2300 preamp tends to provide a sonic edge to the package.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

If I do go back to LB6 or Soloist, I'll have it installed by a pro and be sure that the saddle is properly shaped (if that's possible with the Soloist) to conform to the guitar's fretboard radius. I've learned the hard way that its a bad idea to use a saddle that's shaped for a Taylor or a Martin on a guitar with a 12" fretboard radius.

It is not possible, as far as i know, to shape the top of the Barbera. You could have Rich make a custom pickup, tho

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi P1818

I suspect the reason Keaggy sounds so great on stage has something to do with the Pendulum preamp in his rack (in addition to the Baggs Duet in his guitars). A $2300 preamp tends to provide a sonic edge to the package.

Despite this widespread belief that Keaggy uses the Pendulum, he actually doesn’t. His only rack device is a looper and everything else is pedalboard units, including his EQ and his signal is mono, not stereo. No “typical” acoustic preamps, like Venue are even in his chain. His tech said he tried the Pendulum but didn’t stick with it.

I recently bought and sold a pendulum and they are remarkable pieces of gear but they are very robust. Almost to the point of being impractical. However, the part that made me sell mine was the fact that they are no longer made or supported by Pendulum. It’s a lot of preamp to have mounted in a rack if you can’t replace the parts or get it serviced.

[lkingston]

My LB6 is mounted in my Doyle Dykes Signature Godin Multiac. This guitar also has an LR Baggs Lyric mic and their Session DI built in. I know that both the mic and the preamp contribute to the wonderful sound.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi P1818

The LB-6 is six individual piezos mounted in a brass blank topped by micarta, and it's thicker/deeper (front-to-back) than a normal saddle blank. The piezos must be aligned carefully to match string width, and the saddle has to be routed not only for flatness, but the added depth of the saddle blank.

I played one for 11 years in my Olson (as part of a Baggs Dual Source rig for the last 7 years) before switching to a K&K Pure Mini. I switched to the K&K because heard a Pure Mini in a custom built Larrivee played live for a concert just plugged straight into an UltraSound AG-50 amp with no preamp. It sounded superior to my LB-6 through the Baggs internal preamp. My Olson benefitted when my luthier had to build me a custom saddle, and intonate it after the LB-6 was removed. And the guitar sounds better with a bone saddle in it versus a Brass blank topped with micarta.

Without a preamp, an LB-6 is still a quacker. Expected of any under saddle piezo, be it film, the metal strip kind, or coaxial. The K&K Pure Mini is 3 Piezo elements placed in some kind of domed hard transparent material, and it is the least prone to quacking of any piezo I've ever used. And the addition of a preamp cures the quack issues anyway.

After 15 years of using the K&K dual source rigs (passive K&K & Internal mic), I recently upgraded to the ToneDexter. I'm driving it with the K&K Pure Mini. I decided to leave the mics installed in all 4 of my acoustics, and the preamps are stored in my guitar cabinet in the music room as a backup should the ToneDexter fail or need repairs etc.

The role of the LB-6 was to provide the bottom end of my sound, and the internal mic the clarity and 'air'. The LB-6 with Bagg's internal dual source preamp (added 5 years after the Olson moved in with us) were a solid live rig. But the 'something missing' was improved when I upgraded my pickup and internal mic to the K&K, and added external preamps.

I suspect the reason Keaggy sounds so great on stage has something to do with the Pendulum preamp in his rack (in addition to the Baggs Duet in his guitars). A $2300 preamp tends to provide a sonic edge to the package.

Thanks for this! When you switched to the K&K, obviously the tone was much more natural but how would you say the two pickup compare in terms of producing a full, round and fat tone? I feel like the LB6 sounds quite big for a pickup which is appealing to me.

In terms of routing, do you mean the bottom of the saddle? I figured the LB6 would just slide into my saddle slot with no modifications (other than the top needing to be shaped). I thought the routing would only be if your saddle width was different than the pickup itself?

I should mention that my Taylor has two jacks. The only reason for this is that when I bought it, it had the original ES system and at the time there was really no way to use the same Jack for a new pickup so I was forced to have a second hole drilled. Since then the tru plug came out which allowed for a second jack. I am currently thinking K&K in one Jack and LB6 in the other.

[Petty1818]

Just bumping this to the top in case anyone else has anything to add!

[GuitarLuva]

I've never used the LB6 so I can't comment on that. I've used the Soloist in the past that I bought from Guitaniac but it wasn't a good fit for any of my guitars. My newest guitar is an Emerald X30 and I ordered it with the Soloist pickup. It looks like the same compensation as the normal tusq saddle that Emerald uses so I assume they probably sent Rich a saddle to mimic. One of the first things I checked was if it was shimmed, and it was. Originally I wasn't fussy about having a shim so I removed it temporarily to check the action without it and it was too low so I put it back in. It doesn't seem the impact the tone of the guitar so I learned to accept it.

As for the Soloist pickup itself, it still exhibits the same typical UST characteristics that you're used to. Heavy strumming you hear it while fingerpicking not so much. The pickup has really good string separation, probably the best in that category of any pickup that I've used and very good feedback rejection. It doesn't pick up percussive sounds or string noise which can be a pro or con depending on your needs. Also something else to consider is how it will look in your guitar. I think it looks nice in my X30 as it matches the color scheme. It's not a cheap pickup either but you probably know that already.

Overall I'm happy with the pickup. I'm dual sourcing it at the moment with the HFN. At first I wanted all my guitars to have the same pickup (HFN) but since I'm utilizing Tonedexter more and more I now appreciate having different pickups to play with. I may go back to just the Soloist and use this particular guitar live when I don't want any unwanted noise but I'm still not sure yet. My next experiment for this pickup is to try it with Jonfields IR. I think I will be quite happy with the result as I have been with the HFN.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

I've never used the LB6 so I can't comment on that. I've used the Soloist in the past that I bought from Guitaniac but it wasn't a good fit for any of my guitars. My newest guitar is an Emerald X30 and I ordered it with the Soloist pickup. It looks like the same compensation as the normal tusq saddle that Emerald uses so I assume they probably sent Rich a saddle to mimic. One of the first things I checked was if it was shimmed, and it was. Originally I wasn't fussy about having a shim so I removed it temporarily to check the action without it and it was too low so I put it back in. It doesn't seem the impact the tone of the guitar so I learned to accept it.

As for the Soloist pickup itself, it still exhibits the same typical UST characteristics that you're used to. Heavy strumming you hear it while fingerpicking not so much. The pickup has really good string separation, probably the best in that category of any pickup that I've used and very good feedback rejection. It doesn't pick up percussive sounds or string noise which can be a pro or con depending on your needs. Also something else to consider is how it will look in your guitar. I think it looks nice in my X30 as it matches the color scheme. It's not a cheap pickup either but you probably know that already.

Overall I'm happy with the pickup. I'm dual sourcing it at the moment with the HFN. At first I wanted all my guitars to have the same pickup (HFN) but since I'm utilizing Tonedexter more and more I now appreciate having different pickups to play with. I may go back to just the Soloist and use this particular guitar live when I don't want any unwanted noise but I'm still not sure yet. My next experiment for this pickup is to try it with Jonfields IR. I think I will be quite happy with the result as I have been with the HFN.

Thanks! Do you find the Soloist to have a rounder/fatter tone at all when compared to a standard UST?

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Thanks! Do you find the Soloist to have a rounder/fatter tone at all when compared to a standard UST?

Yeah maybe you can say that. It's definitely clearer and more crisp than a normal UST and the low end is not muddy like most UST's it's punchier.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by GuitarLuva

Yeah maybe you can say that. It's definitely clearer and more crisp than a normal UST and the low end is not muddy like most UST's it's punchier.

Thanks again. I recently switched to the Matrix/Aura set up and have been pleasantly surprised by how much I like the tones. I just sometimes find the Matrix and USTs in general to be a bit thin. I am always looking for a fatter tone.