The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 11-18-2020, 10:15 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,960
Default School me on patchbay normal setup

Up until now, I've always just used my patchbays as a pass-thru but a friend of mine suggested that since I only use my Audioscape buss comp on the two buss, I could set two channels to normal on each patch bay, hook up the buss comp to those, and not have to patch it in on the front of the panel for sessions.

Can someone who understands how this works give me a quick education on this? My friend tried to explain it but it wasn't sinking in for some reason so it might be best to dumb it down for me.
__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-19-2020, 07:52 AM
Bob Womack's Avatar
Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
Guitar Gourmet
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Between Clever and Stupid
Posts: 26,989
Default

We use this quite a lot because there are lots of normal routes in each control room and it doesn't make a lot of sense to have to patch them. Besides anything else, all those patch points are oxidation magnets and thus failure points over time. So, there are a couple of ways to do this.

1) Buss insert. If your console has a master buss insert point, wire the two insert sends to a pair of jacks on the top row of the panel. Set the normals for those two to the jacks below on the lower row. Wire the inputs to the buss compressor into those jacks. Now take the outputs of the compressor to the adjacent pair of upper row jacks. Set those jacks to normal to the lower row jacks below them. Wire the console's buss insert returns to those two jacks. Now when you enable the buss insert the compressor falls right in and you can monitor the results. Of course, there may be a non-switched insert and that will work fine if you do your bypassing on the compressor unit.

2) Inline. With the console two-mix output to a pair of upper row jacks and normal to the lower row jacks below. Wire the compressor inputs to the lower row jacks. Wire the compressor outputs to the adjacent upper row jacks and normal them to the lower jacks. Whatever you want to receive the compressed two mix now goes in those lower jacks, either/and/or wired or plugged.

The other consideration is interrupts: We typically set up the patch bays with interrupts on the LOWER row. An interrupt option on a patchbay passes the wired signal if there is nothing plugged in the jack but interrupts that signal and passes the plugged signal if a patch cable is inserted. What this is good for is either replacing or adding to the existing item. For instance, in example one above, if you want to replace the inserted buss compressor with another, patch the first (left) pair of upper jacks to the inputs of the other device and patch the other device's outputs to the second lower jacks. Hey presto, you've replaced it. If you want to add another effect after your wired and normalled compressor, patch the outputs of the wired compressor on the second top pair to your second device and patch the outputs of that device into the second lower jacks interrupting the output of the normalled compressor. Now the signal goes from buss send to compressor to device to buss return. To put a device BEFORE the compressor, just use the left jacks. Sexy, no?

Does that help?

Bob
__________________
"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring

THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (my website)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-19-2020, 08:41 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,960
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post

Does that help?
You explained it in much the same way that my friend explained it. Maybe this is one of those things where I'll have to get used to it before I grasp what is really going on. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened in my studio journey. Thanks for giving it a shot, Bob.
__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-19-2020, 09:06 AM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Up until now, I've always just used my patchbays as a pass-thru but a friend of mine suggested that since I only use my Audioscape buss comp on the two buss, I could set two channels to normal on each patch bay, hook up the buss comp to those, and not have to patch it in on the front of the panel for sessions.

Can someone who understands how this works give me a quick education on this? My friend tried to explain it but it wasn't sinking in for some reason so it might be best to dumb it down for me.
First do you even use a recording console, feeding your patch bay? (I don't remember you ever mentioning one) which could just be my poor memory

Disclaimer :: I don't use a patchbay and know between just enough to be dangerous, to totally clueless

That said an engineer friend of mine said (if I understood him) the idea is that on channels that you don't change the signal path, there is no reason to use the patch cables (which are designed specially to allow quick change of signal path) and that the connection can just go direct In and Out. I am assuming the reason for this is in line with the notion that in a signal path (less is more), or what is referred to in the audiophile world the "straight wire with gain" theory.

In any case here is an article that speaks to it, in the 5 th. paragraph down

https://theproaudiofiles.com/patch
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 11-19-2020 at 09:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-19-2020, 09:57 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,960
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
First do you even use a recording console, feeding your patch bay? (I don't remember you ever mentioning one) which could just be my poor memory
I don't but I think my friend intends that this become part of a PT session template. I know he employs this in his own patchbays and though he has a couple of O1v boards in his system, I don't think his normaled patches are tied to those boards.

Thanks for the article. I just watched a couple of YouTube videos on the subject. It's still quite over my head.
__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-19-2020, 12:34 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,065
Default

First off, if you have a DAW that offers analog i/o as insert points (as Pro Tools does), that by itself is reason enough to incorporate a patch bay.

Also, there's patch bay lingo:

Full Normal. This means that the top and bottom of a pair are linked. And inserting a plug in either jack breaks the link.

Half Normal. The top and bottom are linked. Inserting a plug in the bottom jack breaks the link. Inserting a plug in the top jack does not.

De-Normal or Non-Normal. There are no links.

Explaining why and when you'd want each kind would take more typing than I'm up for at the moment, but you can probably figure most of it out on your own. And please note that I'm using "jack" in the US way, meaning the female connector only, while the male connector is a "plug."
__________________
Originals

Couch Standards
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-19-2020, 01:19 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,960
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
First off, if you have a DAW that offers analog i/o as insert points (as Pro Tools does), that by itself is reason enough to incorporate a patch bay.
I'm not new to patchbays. I've just always used them as thru-boxes where I've always had to make the connections on the front of the patchbay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Explaining why and when you'd want each kind would take more typing than I'm up for at the moment, but you can probably figure most of it out on your own. And please note that I'm using "jack" in the US way, meaning the female connector only, while the male connector is a "plug."
I suspect to dumb it down enough for me to grasp it in words would take even more typing than that. I'm going to assume this will all make more sense once it's set up and I'm using it. My buddy is going to help me with the setup, so it's probably just going to take some time before I get a sense of how it works. I was hoping there might be a simple way to explain it but now I think I was wrong about that.
__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-20-2020, 06:22 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,960
Default

After my friend showed me how my patchbays could be organized, I'm starting to wrap my head around this "normalized" stuff.

I'm sure I'm not going to use the correct language in describing this, but this is new territory for me. So the way this works is pieces of gear are routed to specific interface channels. The advantage is that to use any of that gear during a mix, I don't have to physically patch it in; I can instead simply employ an insert point within ProTools and the gear is accessed. The "normal" setting on the patchbay creates the connection for me.

But let's say I want to run a mic pre into a compressor on the way in, my Hendy into an Opto, for example. I can break the normalized connection within the patchbay by running a patch cable from the Hendy out (17 or 18 on the upper row of the top patchbay) to the Opto in (3 or 4 on the lower row of the bottom patchbay).





Now that I've grasped this to some degree, I can see how it's a smart way to wire a patchbay. I'll need far fewer patch cables and I'll spend less time patching gear in manually.

The benefit, however, is limited to the number of channels you have. The gear I own takes up all 16. Any additional gear I may acquire will have to be routed the way I was previously doing it... just using the patchbay as thru connectors.

The preamps sit alone at the end because I'm only utilizing the preamp outs on these patchbays. I have a single-row XLR bay that I use for the preamp inputs.

I feel like a fog has been lifted.
__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-22-2020, 09:35 AM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
So the way this works is pieces of gear are routed to specific interface channels. The advantage is that to use any of that gear during a mix, I don't have to physically patch it in; I can instead simply employ an insert point within ProTools and the gear is accessed. The "normal" setting on the patchbay creates the connection for me.

Now that I've grasped this to some degree, I can see how it's a smart way to wire a patchbay. I'll need far fewer patch cables and I'll spend less time patching gear in manually.

I feel like a fog has been lifted.
Hey great explanation of the what "normal " connection means for a patch bay

And the bold is actually how I run my "two" pieces of outboard gear in Pro Tools, as inserts from the I/O selection on the tracks "inserts", although as direct connections no patch bay, but does the same thing And it is very work flow friendly .........................and gets

As per below the 3U is my outboard 2 bus comp, and the M7 is my outboard reverb unit

The input page


The output page


Here I have selected the M7 reverb in the reverb aux tracks, insert section under "i/o"
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 11-22-2020 at 09:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:17 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,960
Default

I've been using I/O insert points to patch in my outboard gear all along. the change is going to be not having to patch them in manually using patch cables once the gear is wired in and those 16 channels on my patch bay are normaled. The way I had it before, everything had to be patched from the front with cables.
__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-22-2020, 01:36 PM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
I've been using I/O insert points to patch in my outboard gear all along. the change is going to be not having to patch them in manually using patch cables once the gear is wired in and those 16 channels on my patch bay are normaled. The way I had it before, everything had to be patched from the front with cables.
Ah ok got it, that make sense. For some reason from your post I thought you were not using channel "inserts" But I am old and easily confused

For example I started a thread on GS about the Carbon (shocked there wasn't one) and put in the High End section, but for some reason it got moved to DAW Talk Pro Tools and I can't really figure out why given it's a high end interface ??? ,,,,oh well actually I am going to GS less and less as I think this forum on AGF actually is superior (in all respects )
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 11-22-2020 at 01:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-22-2020, 06:03 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,960
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Ah ok got it, that make sense. For some reason from your post I thought you were not using channel "inserts" But I am old and easily confused
Did you see how long it took me to grasp this patchbay normal thing? I needed a picture before it even began to come into focus.

I was totally in the box (except for preamps) until I bought my first Audioscape Opto. At that point, I had no choice but to learn how to use inserts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
For example I started a thread on GS about the Carbon (shocked there wasn't one) and put in the High End section, but for some reason it got moved to DAW Talk Pro Tools and I can't really figure out why given it's a high end interface ??? ,,,,oh well actually I am going to GS less and less as I think this forum on AGF actually is superior (in all respects )
I suspect that's because the box is daw-specific ...or maybe all interface conversations go there, I'm not sure. I'm going to be quite jealous when you pull the trigger on that box.

I re-labeled my patchbays and re-cabled my rack today. It's a good thing I labeled both ends of every cable when I pulled them, or I'd be sitting here doing this all week. I powered up the X16 to make sure I didn't buy a dead box, and I was able to register it in my account and authorize all my plugins for the new box. I have to do all the I/O stuff yet but I've put enough hours in on this today. Best I tackle that when I'm fresh.

Here are my patchbays all re-labeled. The first 16 on each of the TRS bays are set to normal, so every piece of outboard gear is accessible via an insert, no additional cabling necessary. I feel like I've entered a brave new world.

__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-22-2020, 06:49 PM
KevWind's Avatar
KevWind KevWind is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edge of Wilderness Wyoming
Posts: 19,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
Did you see how long it took me to grasp this patchbay normal thing? I needed a picture before it even began to come into focus.

I was totally in the box (except for preamps) until I bought my first Audioscape Opto. At that point, I had no choice but to learn how to use inserts.



I suspect that's because the box is daw-specific ...or maybe all interface conversations go there, I'm not sure. I'm going to be quite jealous when you pull the trigger on that box.

I re-labeled my patchbays and re-cabled my rack today. It's a good thing I labeled both ends of every cable when I pulled them, or I'd be sitting here doing this all week. I powered up the X16 to make sure I didn't buy a dead box, and I was able to register it in my account and authorize all my plugins for the new box. I have to do all the I/O stuff yet but I've put enough hours in on this today. Best I tackle that when I'm fresh.

Here are my patchbays all re-labeled. The first 16 on each of the TRS bays are set to normal, so every piece of outboard gear is accessible via an insert, no additional cabling necessary. I feel like I've entered a brave new world.

Interesting looks really well organized and the labels are way better than the hand scribbled on white first aid tape, Ive seen on some patch bays.

So If I am understanding what I'm looking at, everything except the Exciter and V Comp are 2 channel Yes?


Wondering off topic a bit BUT

What I was doing all morning was messing with the new 2020.11, version of PT and loading some custom script ( sent to me by a great guy on the Avid user forum ,, the DUC) to make the new Pro Tools "Dark Mode" GUI ,,, pop more visible overall , and some of the font more quickly legible

Don't know if you've upgraded or know about it . Normally my SOP is I wait longer usually several months, but I decided what the heck and did it Friday (I keep a Folder on my desk top of every new version since 12, incase I run into issue and decide to go back)

Any way the Dark mode is making a big stir over on the DUC (both positive and negative ) and I was curious .
So here are some screen shots of the new Dark Mode from one of my templates (BUT)with his new hack enhancements.
Not sure if I am completely sold on it over the previous look, but you can simply switch it back to "Classic" in the Display preferences, so I am trying it for a few weeks to see.


Also note on my studio Display it is clearer, sharper, and with a bit more brightness and contrast, than in these screen shots
Here on the Lead Vocal track the EQ is bypassed so still the same blue color







One of the big complaints was people had a hard time seeing when the plugins were "inactive" because they were just grayed out and translucent on the darker background,,,,, So he coded in some red "text" that shows up when the are inactive and can be seen at glance not squinting at the screen

like here I have the EQ on the BG Vox inactive and my 3U comp on the 2 Bus

__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

KevWind at Soundcloud

KevWind at YouYube
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD

System :
Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1

Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Ventura 12.2.1

Last edited by KevWind; 11-22-2020 at 07:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-22-2020, 08:37 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,960
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
So If I am understanding what I'm looking at, everything except the Exciter and V Comp are 2 channel Yes?
No, that's just me forgetting to label the last four X16 channels. I didn't even notice it until you pointed that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Wondering off topic a bit BUT

What I was doing all morning was messing with the new 2020.11, version of PT and loading some custom script ( sent to me by a great guy on the Avid user forum ,, the DUC) to make the new Pro Tools "Dark Mode" GUI ,,, pop more visible overall , and some of the font more quickly legible

Don't know if you've upgraded or know about it . Normally my SOP is I wait longer usually several months, but I decided what the heck and did it Friday (I keep a Folder on my desk top of every new version since 12, incase I run into issue and decide to go back)

Any way the Dark mode is making a big stir over on the DUC (both positive and negative ) and I was curious .
So here are some screen shots of the new Dark Mode from one of my templates (BUT)with his new hack enhancements.
Not sure if I am completely sold on it over the previous look, but you can simply switch it back to "Classic" in the Display preferences, so I am trying it for a few weeks to see.
Interesting. I tend to prefer not making those dark/light switches for no other reason than I'm used to seeing what I'm used to seeing. But the first thing that popped into my head was whether this change made it easier to see the notes in the midi edit window. That's my biggest PT complaint. No matter what color I choose for the notes, there is never enough contrast for my eyes.

Now I'm going to go pull out the label maker I just packed up.
__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:01 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,960
Default

Okay, I addressed my omission. 16 channels now.

__________________
Jim
2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi
2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood
2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar
2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce
2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce
1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce

along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos.

YouTube
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=