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  #61  
Old 07-27-2017, 12:13 AM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
It's pretty simple after some practice. You just get it close to the right size, then turn to tighten. I've used the C-Clamps as well, but they have their own issues, at least on the guitar's I've tried. It's easy to get the transducer rocked slightly to one side, which won't work well. The turnbuckle makes it easy to get centered, balanced pressure on the pickup.
I agree with Doug. After some practice, it could be the least stressfull operation. I missed my alignment again. I will wait 12h to check the result though...

Next time I will leave the phone inside and make a video stream... to check what I am doing.

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Last edited by Cuki79; 07-27-2017 at 12:19 AM.
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  #62  
Old 07-27-2017, 06:00 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Trance Amulet: Finally installing!

Having installed 2 trance systems in 3 guitars I can honestly say that Gary needs a better attachment method, or a way to make it less placement dependent, or at least quicker to identify mistakes. I'm an engineer, so I'm looking at this from a purely practical and mass acceptance perspective.

The temp tape is not adequate for the uninitiated to know if they got the placement right. It only works for people who know what to expect.

I don't argue that the results are excellent once you get it right, but the average guitar player cannot do this installation. It's not that's its difficult, but it requires a level of patience and precision that most people simple do not have. Since it sounds so good, I've love to see them make is easier/faster to install so more people would use it. Even if they switched to an adhesive tape that fully cured in 15 minutes instead of 24 hours. Or, they could come up with an adjustable jig like K&K did. Once K&K included the jig with each pickup, I became an overnight "expert" at installing them.

In order to do so, Gary might have to move the lead wires to the side of the pickup. Though, I suspect you could make a jig that avoided the leads. Then, if he had faster curing tape, you can use the K&K jig, and clamp for 15 minutes. You simply cannot wait two 12 hour periods to find out you got it wrong. It's not practical and it limits the potential sales tremendously.
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  #63  
Old 07-27-2017, 09:38 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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The Stewart-MacDonald Soundhole Deep-Throat C-Clamps have swivel clamping surfaces which, as long as the clamp is supported toward its rear-end, preclude stresses that could partially tilt the Amulet away from the guitar's bridgeplate. Folks, I'm not trying to mislead anyone, I've used these clamps to install Amulets.

Stewart-MacDonald Soundhole Clamps
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  #64  
Old 07-27-2017, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
The Stewart-MacDonald Soundhole Deep-Throat C-Clamps have swivel clamping surfaces which, as long as the clamp is supported toward its rear-end, preclude stresses that could partially tilt the Amulet away from the guitar's bridgeplate. Folks, I'm not trying to mislead anyone, I've used these clamps to install Amulets.

Stewart-MacDonald Soundhole Clamps
Yes, that's what I have. I noted in your photos that your bridge is nice and flat. Mine are not, and that tended to cause the clamps to pull, even with the swivels. It does work if you support the rear-end - so you basically need a clamp for the clamp! It certainly can work, and maybe I just need more practice at using the clamps, but the Trance turnbuckle was easier for me to get a straight-on pressure. Whatever works, of course. The guys at Gryphon tell me they don't use clamps, they just press by hand for a few minutes. So there are multiple ways to get the job done.
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  #65  
Old 07-27-2017, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Yes, that's what I have. I noted in your photos that your bridge is nice and flat. Mine are not, and that tended to cause the clamps to pull, even with the swivels. It does work if you support the rear-end - so you basically need a clamp for the clamp! It certainly can work, and maybe I just need more practice at using the clamps, but the Trance turnbuckle was easier for me to get a straight-on pressure. Whatever works, of course. The guys at Gryphon tell me they don't use clamps, they just press by hand for a few minutes. So there are multiple ways to get the job done.
Thanks, Doug. My slam on the turnbuckle method was meant to be somewhat facetious as I just couldn't see playing around with it when the c-clamp is so easy to use on the Martin HD-28 and placement can be easily viewed with usage of the mirror and LED lights. Bridge cauls are also available from Stewart-MacDonald and could likely facilitate usage of the c-clamps on bridges with more angular surfaces.
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  #66  
Old 07-27-2017, 11:31 AM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
Having installed 2 trance systems in 3 guitars I can honestly say that Gary needs a better attachment method, or a way to make it less placement dependent, or at least quicker to identify mistakes. I'm an engineer, so I'm looking at this from a purely practical and mass acceptance perspective.

The temp tape is not adequate for the uninitiated to know if they got the placement right. It only works for people who know what to expect.

I don't argue that the results are excellent once you get it right, but the average guitar player cannot do this installation. It's not that's its difficult, but it requires a level of patience and precision that most people simple do not have. Since it sounds so good, I've love to see them make is easier/faster to install so more people would use it. Even if they switched to an adhesive tape that fully cured in 15 minutes instead of 24 hours. Or, they could come up with an adjustable jig like K&K did. Once K&K included the jig with each pickup, I became an overnight "expert" at installing them.

In order to do so, Gary might have to move the lead wires to the side of the pickup. Though, I suspect you could make a jig that avoided the leads. Then, if he had faster curing tape, you can use the K&K jig, and clamp for 15 minutes. You simply cannot wait two 12 hour periods to find out you got it wrong. It's not practical and it limits the potential sales tremendously.
I have to agree with you on this and I will add some points of my own. First off, the 12 hour wait per transducer is a pain and to be honest, I really don't think it does anything. IMO, a good hour should be sufficient. I am not even sure how you can accurately prove that 12 hours is needed? Regardless, it just makes small changes very labour intensive and I lost interest.

Secondly, I don't even really find that small changes in the placement of the transducers does anything. I moved my treble transducer from the jig installation to a good 2-3mm's towards the sound hole which is more than I would have liked and the high end sounds the same. I was expecting some warmth but I did not notice a change. What I hear with the treble transducers is that plinky, brittle high end that you would expect from a cheap acoustic. I can't dial it out. I know my guitar has a bright high end but this pickup makes it sounds cheap.

Lastly, I have to be honest, with the K&K pure mini, when I plug it in I just hear my guitar. It's a lot warmer and I don't love that pickup but it does sound natural. I have one in my Larrivee. The Trance is nice but it definitely has a piezo tone to it that I hear almost immediately. I think this is just one time where I need to admit defeat.
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  #67  
Old 07-27-2017, 11:37 AM
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After seeing all the processes you guys have gone through to install, listen, move transducers, optimize, wait 12 hours, try it again that much later, I am confident to say I will never try an Amulet.

And the thing is, I am VERY happy with my Baggs Anthem. I also had good sonic results with a K&K before, but it was more feedback prone.

I have the Anthem's in both my Collings OM1A and OM2H MRG. They work great, and are very resistant to feedback.

Maybe the Amulet is worth the agony, but it sure seems like a pain in the a** to get it right.
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  #68  
Old 07-27-2017, 11:50 AM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Groberts View Post
After seeing all the processes you guys have gone through to install, listen, move transducers, optimize, wait 12 hours, try it again that much later, I am confident to say I will never try an Amulet.

And the thing is, I am VERY happy with my Baggs Anthem. I also had good sonic results with a K&K before, but it was more feedback prone.

I have the Anthem's in both my Collings OM1A and OM2H MRG. They work great, and are very resistant to feedback.

Maybe the Amulet is worth the agony, but it sure seems like a pain in the a** to get it right.
You have the full anthem in both, correct? I do feel that, that is a superior pickup to the Anthem SL, even though Baggs employees will tell us otherwise. The thing is, the SL just has too much tru-mic blended in and to be honest, it doesn't sound like a mic to me, it has it's own sonic footprint, which can be overdone. If I cared enough, I would give the full Anthem a try just to see if different blends would give me the tone I want but it's a lot to spend for an experiment.
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  #69  
Old 07-27-2017, 11:57 AM
MaurysMusic MaurysMusic is offline
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Originally Posted by Groberts View Post
After seeing all the processes you guys have gone through to install, listen, move transducers, optimize, wait 12 hours, try it again that much later, I am confident to say I will never try an Amulet.

And the thing is, I am VERY happy with my Baggs Anthem. I also had good sonic results with a K&K before, but it was more feedback prone.

I have the Anthem's in both my Collings OM1A and OM2H MRG. They work great, and are very resistant to feedback.

Maybe the Amulet is worth the agony, but it sure seems like a pain in the a** to get it right.
In fairness, you're not seeing the hundreds of installs that are happening with great results & without issue. I'm not the most patient person and I'm still installing these after 4 years. If these headaches were normal I'd have bailed long ago. Just another viewpoint if you're open to it.
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  #70  
Old 07-27-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
You have the full anthem in both, correct? I do feel that, that is a superior pickup to the Anthem SL, even though Baggs employees will tell us otherwise. The thing is, the SL just has too much tru-mic blended in and to be honest, it doesn't sound like a mic to me, it has it's own sonic footprint, which can be overdone. If I cared enough, I would give the full Anthem a try just to see if different blends would give me the tone I want but it's a lot to spend for an experiment.
Yes I have the full Anthem on both of my guitars. I've read others say there isn't much difference between the Full Anthem versus the SL version, but I was so happy with the full Anthem in my first Collings, I wasn't going to mess with success. I like the ability to blend the UST Matrix with Tru Mic and I like the LED Battery indicator lights in the soundhole control panel. That gives me peace of mind so I can easily check battery strength before my gig.
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  #71  
Old 07-27-2017, 03:24 PM
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After seeing all the processes you guys have gone through to install, listen, move transducers, optimize, wait 12 hours, try it again that much later, I am confident to say I will never try an Amulet.
I think this is a sort of catch-22. People are experimenting, tweaking, trying to get a little better sound *because* they can. With something like the K&K, where the second the superglue hits, you're done, you just accept the results, say "that sounds pretty good" and move on. With the Trance, there's always that thought "what if I moved it a 1/16th of an inch? Could it sound even better?" and so on. With the Anthem, there's not as much you can do, tho there are always people who have string balance issues, and when the Anthem and Lyric first came out, people were trying the mic in different locations. I know people who have customized their Anthem by replacing the mic, those who have tried different USTs, those who want to replace the onboard preamp with an external one, on and on.

In other words, all this experimenting and moving around isn't required - you're hearing from experimenters. The vast majority of people with any pickup take the guitar to a shop, have a pickup installed, and go home and plugin, never thinking about it again. The handful of people on this thread who are talking about this are tinkerers, the same kind of people who in another life might be rebuilding their car engines, or overclocking their PCs to get better game performance. It's fun, they're (we...) are looking for that last ounce of performance, and willing to spend the time to get it. But it's not required.
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  #72  
Old 07-27-2017, 03:28 PM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
I have to agree with you on this and I will add some points of my own. First off, the 12 hour wait per transducer is a pain and to be honest, I really don't think it does anything. IMO, a good hour should be sufficient. I am not even sure how you can accurately prove that 12 hours is needed? Regardless, it just makes small changes very labour intensive and I lost interest.
I've compares 1h30 and 12h and it is day and night. 1h30 sounded sin. Proper clamping for 12h and I got back the mid bass and low mid.
Many people have reported sucess with super short clamping time... If you have a thin sound. Call Gary.

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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
Secondly, I don't even really find that small changes in the placement of the transducers does anything. I moved my treble transducer from the jig installation to a good 2-3mm's towards the sound hole which is more than I would have liked and the high end sounds the same.
I have similar experience so far. Gary confirmed that position is not that important.

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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
Lastly, I have to be honest, with the K&K pure mini, when I plug it in I just hear my guitar. It's a lot warmer and I don't love that pickup but it does sound natural. I have one in my Larrivee. The Trance is nice but it definitely has a piezo tone to it that I hear almost immediately. I think this is just one time where I need to admit defeat.
I agree. For now Trance sounds to me like a piezo with a greater dynamic and more air. But you still get that plasticy tone.

I will see if I can correct that with an IR.

Note that if you listen to Doug's post again. Moving to the soundhole adds air and somekind of "distance". It's not really warmer, less defined I'd say. However he did improved his Amulet tone since.

Cuki
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  #73  
Old 07-27-2017, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
I have to agree with you on this and I will add some points of my own. First off, the 12 hour wait per transducer is a pain and to be honest, I really don't think it does anything. IMO, a good hour should be sufficient.
Gryphon says they manually hold the pickup in for a few minutes. They tell me they hear no difference, and they've installed hundreds, and have been installing Trances for a decade or more - originally with glue before the tape showed up. I tried it, and also hear no difference. But to be on the safe side, why not let it sit overnight? I'm not usually in a rush. You can certainly clamp 2 at once, which is what I've done.

A combination approach is to stick them in, press for a minute or two until your hand gets tired :-), then test it out. If it sounds good, add the clamps and let sit overnight. If not, re-position and try again. Certainly not the official recommended approach, but it should be fine and speed up the cycle.
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  #74  
Old 07-27-2017, 03:35 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cuki79 View Post
I've compares 1h30 and 12h and it is day and night. 1h30 sounded sin. Proper clamping for 12h and I got back the mid bass and low mid.
Many people have reported sucess with super short clamping time... If you have a thin sound. Call Gary.


I have similar experience so far. Gary confirmed that position is not that important.



I agree. For now Trance sounds to me like a piezo with a greater dynamic and more air. But you still get that plasticy tone.

I will see if I can correct that with an IR.

Note that if you listen to Doug's post again. Moving to the soundhole adds air and somekind of "distance". It's not really warmer, less defined I'd say. However he did improved his Amulet tone since.

Cuki
I am tempted to re-install the bass transducer and clamp it on its own (did them at the same time before), but I highly doubt this will give me a drastically different sound. My bass transducer for some reason is slightly closer to the bridge pins on one side than the other but again, I doubt a slight movement will give me a huge change.
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  #75  
Old 07-27-2017, 03:36 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Gryphon says they manually hold the pickup in for a few minutes. They tell me they hear no difference, and they've installed hundreds, and have been installing Trances for a decade or more - originally with glue before the tape showed up. I tried it, and also hear no difference. But to be on the safe side, why not let it sit overnight? I'm not usually in a rush. You can certainly clamp 2 at once, which is what I've done.

A combination approach is to stick them in, press for a minute or two until your hand gets tired :-), then test it out. If it sounds good, add the clamps and let sit overnight. If not, re-position and try again. Certainly not the official recommended approach, but it should be fine and speed up the cycle.
Oh for sure, I definitely clamp it just in case. I just don't hear any difference as well.
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