Modelers

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

And then there are the starved-plate tube overdrive pedals like the BK Butler Tube Driver.



Bob

Those dam tube pedals are like gophers in the digital garden = ya just never know when they are gonna pop up

[edward993]

I read every post here, carefully --especially Bob's ...love it when you post, sir!--- and find myself in much the same company as many here, as well as the OP. My simplified (simplistic?) experience:

1. Modelers are a deep dive into that world that takes time and diligence to get what you really want from them. I have spent some time there. But ultimately, that time I had found was far better spent on playing and learning more guitar.

2. Modelers have come a long way since their inception, and now can sound amazing. And given the huge shift to IEMs and "quiet" stages, they will likely be the norm and all else will be the outliers. But that doesn't prompt me to go there as I can still do what I need to do the "analog" way; not because my way is better, but simply because I have learned to make it work. This is timestamped, for sure. Like I won't play with a band that uses IEMs which clearly limits me, but I'm ok with that.

3. It may sound silly, and admittedly simplistic, but I just want to "turn a knob" to get me musically where I want to be. And I am no luddite as I embrace "tech" wholly, but only when it gets me where I want to be. A simple example is my pedalboard which is a smattering of analog and digital solely for the tone I want, but at the ease of getting there.

Ease. There ain't no shortage of folks smarter and more diligent than me, but modeling is like learning a new instrument. And I'd rather play and hone what I know than branch to new ground that I doubt will bring me more feel-goods. That said, I do want to pick up piano in these, my later years. But to me, this "newness" represents far more feel-goods than whatever modelers can offer.

So far, so good. In my lifetime, I think I'll be ok without this newness ...I "think" so at least but may be proven otherwise at any given time when the next "breakthrough" comes along.

Edward

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by KevWind

All digital pedals are solid state , but not all solid state pedals are digital

True dat. Although the first digital "Solid state" (transistors instead of vacuum tubes) computer was built in 1954, Sony built the first analog transistor radio in 1955. I still remember my six-transistor Sony pocket radio from about 1956. It was a modern (analog) miracle at the time.

Of course, if you want to go farther back in history, crystal radios, which date back to the late 1800s, were analog devices that technically could be considered solid-state, so you could say the first solid state devices were analog.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Those dam tube pedals are like gophers in the digital garden = ya just never know when they are gonna pop up

I have actually run my Tube Driver before my Helix and found it to be useful. Of course, the Helix has a Tube Driver model called the "Valve Driver," soooo...

Bob

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

I have actually run my Tube Driver before my Helix and found it to be useful. Of course, the Helix has a Tube Driver model called the "Valve Driver," soooo...

Bob

Speaking of "drivers" how about

"Driving in my car, smoking my cigar, the only time I'm happy's when I play my guitar " ahh ahh ahh ah ahh

I'm bettin the tubes are being driven at about 1:32

[ghostnote]

I’ve been a fan of modelers since I got a 1st-gen POD in the ‘90s. I think they sound great, even though I have many amps, both tube and SS. I tend to not think too much about what I’m doing with them, or what they’re doing, only about how they sound. Sounds obvious, but all those parameters and options can just get in the way of the good stuff that’s in there. The late producer David Briggs, who produced all of Neil Young’s best records and many others, had a sign on his studio wall that said, “the more you think, the more you stink”. It could probably be taken partly as hyperbole, but he meant it, and there is much truth in it. I try to take these complex machines and get the best possible sounds with the least tweaking. If a patch stinks, I don’t try to turn crap into gold, I dump it immediately. There’s too much good stuff that can be turned into great stuff with a few simple adjustments.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Speaking of "drivers" how about "Driving in my car, smoking my cigar, the only time I'm happy's when I play my guitar " ahh ahh ahh ah ahh

I'm bettin the tubes are being driven at about 1:32

Marshall JTM45/100. Sounds a wee ratty, no?

Bob

[fazool]

Originally Posted by fazool

I've spent years chasing tone and building pedal boards and trying to get the right sound.

My friend is in a super popular local band (they draw thousands to some shows and gig 3-4 X per month). His band opened up for several A-listers and he is in the Buffalo Music Hall of Fame.
He asked me to play out with him and just use his guitar rig. Given the caliber of his band I was expecting the most equipped pedal board and a "traditional" rig. I got there and he had a Line6 modeling amp with a super simple selector pedal to change models. It was amazing to use. I asked him why he doesn't use traditional tube amp and discrete pedals.

By the way (side note) almost all effect pedals are transistor based units so the effects are all digital anyway - even when you think you are running an analog "pure" rig.

Anyway, he told me that his modeling amp easily sounds good enough. At loud rock band volumes its indistinguishable. And the ease and simplicity of operation make it worth it.

Playing it I found to be so easy and intuitive. I fell in love using it. I went home that day and sold my rig and switched and never looked back.

I program the night's set list into the amp and I flash my studio amp to match for rehearsals. Everything about it is so *EASY*. And I've gotten really good at mastering the tone. I've had guitar-people (on multiple occasions) tell me how good my guitar tone is.

If you look at totally different guitar sounds (twangy clean to distorted spacy to gritty growl). I can switch between those with one click. You can't do that "on the fly" with a discrete pedal board. You have to change effects, dial in levels, etc.

Originally Posted by KevWind

. Correction - while yes most pedals are solid state based. However solid state can still be "pure analog".
Only when a pedal also uses DSP (digital signal processing) along with its analog input and output, is it considered a digital pedal.

In a simplistic catch phrase (All digital pedals are solid state , but not all solid state pedals are digital )

For example on my Pedal board I have 8 pedals, only two of which are digital (use DSP) , the other 6 are all "pure analog" pedals ... juss sayin

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

True dat. Although the first digital "Solid state" (transistors instead of vacuum tubes) computer was built in 1954, Sony built the first analog transistor radio in 1955. I still remember my six-transistor Sony pocket radio from about 1956. It was a modern (analog) miracle at the time.

Of course, if you want to go farther back in history, crystal radios, which date back to the late 1800s, were analog devices that technically could be considered solid-state, so you could say the first solid state devices were analog.

Yep - sorry I was sloppy in my writing and thinking....being lazy as I replied.

I was thinking of the old tube-amp versus transistor amp debate, wherein tube-amp-purists might say "you cant get great sound with transistors" meanwhile there entire pedal chain is transistors......

[Rolph]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Those dam tube pedals are like gophers in the digital garden = ya just never know when they are gonna pop up

I've been using one of those since the 1980's, daily. Have always appreciated the Chandler tube driver.

[AX17609]

I'd like expand on a comment I made in my initial post and that Bob Womack amplified in his post (#3). It's not so much that modeler users are trying to copy tube amps. What we are doing is attempting to capture what tube amps do. What follows is my present understanding of the situation...which may be wrong.

Old school tube amps produce a number of effects as you turn up the volume knob. The pre-amp and power amp tubes overdrive and distort, the rectifier compresses and the tonal shape of the output changes, usually in ways pleasing to the human ear.

Capturing these effects in a modeler is a challenge. Pre-amp distortion is different from power amp overdrive. The former tends to be more "square shouldered" and less pleasing to the ear than the latter's "soft shouldered" effect. In my experience, it's fairly easy to capture pre-amp distortion; it's far more difficult to capture the meat of power amp overdrive. In other words, it's easier to sound like Kirk Hammett on any Metallica album than Eric Clapton on Live Cream Volume 2.

Capturing the effect of a tube rectifier is even more tricky and requires the use of compression in ways that tube amp users take for granted. For example, my basic signal chain now includes some degree of compression, whereas I never used it in the past with tube amps. I guess I wasn't aware of the compression that the amp was handling for me. But you have to manually created it in a modeler, because it's essential in order to generate the right amount of sustain, particularly on leads high on the fretboard.

Finally, the tonal change that occurs with increasing volume requires becoming familiar with an EQ somewhere in the signal chain as well as the use of high- and low-pass filters. I rarely used the former in the old days, and I didn't even understand the use of the latter until recently. Guitarists who don't do this end up with a tonal range that's too wide and doesn't merge well with the rest of the band. You have to refine your sonic bandwidth with the sensibilities of an audio engineer. Finally, with all this gear in the signal path, you need a carefully adjusted noise gate to keep everything quiet while not killing the sustain you worked so hard to create.

In my mind, users of modelers have to come to terms with all of this, assembling and refining basic amp tones piece by piece. Then on top, you have to add reverb and frequently some kind of delay to capture room effects. It's a big task just trying to capture a basic tone, and that's before you add snazzier effects. If you're in a cover band trying to sound like everyone from ABBA to ZZ Top, the challenge can be overwhelming.

So, why don't I just use tube amps? Good question. Maybe I need to rethink this whole modeler initiative. The basic reason is because everything I do ultimately comes back to me thru headphones. No one ever hears me play. That requirement complicates the signal chain and ups the ante on cost. Also, to be candid, historically I haven't had all that much luck with tube amps. I just end up buying pedals to compensate for some shortcoming in the amp, and I've grown weary of chasing the latest and greatest pedal. I'd rather just move a slider on a computer screen.

Try as I might to find a "Dummies" or "Idiot's" guide to teach me all of this, I've had to study it by prowling the dark alleys of the internet and by reading manuals not written to be understood. I'm often thrown by basic terminology. I think I need to rent a teenager to guide me.

[maxtheaxe]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

And then there are the starved-plate tube overdrive pedals like the BK Butler Tube Driver.



Bob

I like this...my main live rig for a couple decades has been a BK Butler Tubeworks amp, which has this pedal circuitry available in the front end, and a V1 Line6 POD modeler. Bought that more than 30 years ago and still running great!

The one thing I found that put it all over the top was placing a compressor (Boss CS3; Keeley, et al) in front of everything; after that, the tones are completely convincing...just needs that extra squash.

Other than that I replaced the old Eminence 12" in the Butler with a Celestion V30; the whole rig weighs about 30lbs and it sings!

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by AX17609

[tl;dr alert]

With all the love around here for tube amps, I thought I'd take a stab at starting a thread dedicated to modelers and the issues that those devices present. If you have some experience to share, I'd love to hear it.

I use a Spark 40. I am strictly a bedroom guitarist and the Spark suits me perfectly.

Then you're there!

I like the fact that it interfaces with my computer via USB, and that I can play along with instructional material and backing tracks thru headphones connected directly to the unit. There are no latency issues, I can play at ear melting volume, and no one is the wiser. The Spark has 25 or so built-in amp models and a fairly large number of effects, all of which can be operated via a footswitch. What's not to like?

Most critics complain about the sound.

The challenge has been getting it to sound like a real guitar amplifier.

You won't.

Modelers don't behave like real amps. They have all the same controls, but those controls don't do the same thing they do on a tube amp. In fact, no less an authority than Fractal says that chasing the tone of a tube amp with a modeler is a fool's errand. They suggest that you're better off just trying to sound as good as you can without trying to copy any particular sound.

They're right.

I'm forced to agree, but my experience is that you can get close, and doing so is part of the challenge. Personally, I am drawn to the British blues sound of the 60s. I like the thunderous midrange punch of a Les Paul thru an old school Marshall. The guitarists of that period didn't use a mountain of effects.

A Dallas Rangemaster treble boost, a Fuzz Face, a Cry Baby wah, and a DeArmond trem were about it. The Tube Screamer changed everything.

It was pretty much a guitar, a cord and an amplifier. But capturing straight, uncolored amp tones in a modeler is hard.

Building tone in a modeler is very much a construction process. It's not as simple as just choosing an amp or dialing up someone's preset. In fact, I've found most of the presets that people offer up online to be wildly overcooked. They turn the gain up to 11 and go from there. I've had more luck building tones myself, step by step. Whenever I feel like I've gotten as close as possible to my desired tone, I discover some little trick that nudges me just a little bit closer. The Spark has been a good tool for learning how to do that.

Cool.

But it's just a student-level product.

Bummer.

I look forward to trying some upgrades. In particular, I'd like a unit with some cabinet simulation. But the whole rig has to satisfy my basic requirement of playing entirely thru headphones with backing tracks fed directly, preferably via USB. Unfortunately, getting clarity on this topic is difficult. Salesmen rarely know what they're talking about, and modeler manuals aren't always clear.

The Line 6 ecosystem appeals to me, because they seem to have the best user interface. It has also been recommended to me by one of our more knowledgeable members, whose opinion I always respect. I was all set to buy a Pod Go to just dip my toe in the Line 6 water until I heard about a mysterious input impedance problem that infects the unit. It's either the BIGGEST PROBLEM IN THE WORLD or nothing at all, depending on who you listen to. I can't tell.


B&T: buy and try.

Going up a notch, there's the HX Stomp and HX Stomp XL, which seem to be favorites among the sort of YouTube people I listen to. Everyone is selling Stomp presets. But Line 6 says that those units are intended to be used in a pedal board with other effects. I don't understand why, since they seem to have everything built in, but everyone I see with one of those units seems to have them on a pedalboard with other effects. Clearly, I'm missing something.

Then there's the Helix and Helix LT. These seem to be full-featured units with more capability than I could ever hope to use or figure out. After all, I'm just a guy playing Cream covers in his bedroom. They're also expensive, albeit they're less expensive than the cost of all the amps and effects that they attempt emulate. I have no desire at all to re-enter the buy/sell amp/effects market.

I'd be happier with one amp I like the sound of. But I don't try to sound like anyone else. I'd feel like an Elvis impersonator.

So, here I sit...

. . . brokenhearted, tried to — never mind.

kind of stalled, reading a lot of manuals.

Just get something that seems promising. If it doesn't work, try something else.

Your input is welcomed.

How about some feedback? EEEEEEEEE . . . .

There's a lot of good information in the posts above, but in the end, all you'll get from this thread is more opinions, which you already seem to have enough of. I'd just take the plunge and get something with good reviews.

What's the worst that could happen?

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Speaking of "drivers" how about

"Driving in my car, smoking my cigar, the only time I'm happy's when I play my guitar " ahh ahh ahh ah ahh

I'm bettin the tubes are being driven at about 1:32

I'm bettin' there's a Dallas Rangemaster between the guitar and the amp.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

I'm bettin' there's a Dallas Rangemaster between the guitar and the amp.

Had to look that one up . Apparently you are not alone in thinking that -But according to this Pro Audio Files article there wasn't

https://theproaudiofiles.com/eric-cl...%20never%20did.

An excerpt from that article

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by fazool

Yep - sorry I was sloppy in my writing and thinking....being lazy as I replied.

I was thinking of the old tube-amp versus transistor amp debate, wherein tube-amp-purists might say "you cant get great sound with transistors" meanwhile there entire pedal chain is transistors......

Yeahbut! Being pro-tube amp doesn't mean being anti-transistor. The debate is between tube and solid-state amps.

There are plenty of good solid-state amps. (I'd love a Roland Blues Cube!) So what's the big deal with tube amps? The sound changes as you play. You're an acoustic maven, so you get it: Some gear opens up with use. A triangle doesn't. A D-18 does. The difference between a folk guitar and a tube amp is that folk guitars open over weeks, months, and years, while tube amps open up over minutes and hours as they heat up.

And it's unpredictable. Was the amp in a cold pickup bed? Is this room a lot bigger than the last gig? Are you playing the same kind of music tonight you played last night?

So when you're on stage or at a jam, you're interacting with your amp. It's a conversation. You're constantly finding another sweet spot where there wasn't one a few minutes ago. Tone-chaser heaven.

And transistors in the chain doesn't change that.

I have a tube amp and a solid-state: a 1965 Fender Bassman and a 2020 Quilter. Nothing wrong with the Quilter. Sounds good. I like it. Glad I bought it. But tube mojo? Fergiddit. No doubt someday someone will figure out how to emulate it. But until it happens, tubes will be the go-to for electric tone freaks everywhere — just like solid wood will be the go-to for acoustic players tracking down that pot of flattop gold.