Untreated room mystery

[KevWind]

I think we need to pull back and clarify a bit .

By the numbers

#1 The exceptions of some choosing to record in untreated rooms (for whatever reason) who have good gear and the knowledge of how to do it and minimize issues
Has ABSOLUTELY nothing,,, to do with the advisability for the average inexperienced home recordist, in the average smallish room to at least consider addressing room reflection issues ,before simply purchasing new & better gear in the blind hope, it will improve their sound .....That's just the reality, and all the "ya buts" do not detract from or even really relate to that reality ....

#2 I completely understand the quest for better gear for better sound in fact I am a big advocate of it...(Look at the list in my sig line)
BUT I would not advise somebody to buy a Ducati Superleggera V4 and race around Daytona before getting some boots, full leathers, helmet, and some lessons ,,juss sayin'

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by KevWind

the knowledge of how to do it and minimize issues

I think this is where fantasy meets reality. The people with the required expertise didn't gain it by occasionally moving mics around in their spare bedrooms to record themselves. They worked in the industry for years learning techniques by moving mics around for professional engineers. They listened to pros like Al Schmitt, Tom Dowd, Bill Putnam, etc., when they talked about why they did anything in a certain way or why they chose a particular piece of gear over another. They spent years upon years working full-time in the industry training their ears to hear things most bedroom recordists are never going to hear. It's one thing to tell a person that great results are achievable with no room treatment; it's a much more difficult thing to actually pull it off.

Luckily, there's a pretty easy and inexpensive way to make it sound better.

[phcorrigan]

I'd say there is no one right way. Here is where and how one of the top-selling albums in the world was recorded"

https://themusicnetwork.com/billie-e...edroom-studio/

Yes, the sound quality from a properly-treated studio will make a difference, but sometimes it just doesn't really matter. Sometimes, working with what you have will be just fine.

[alohachris]

Aloha,

Treat your recording spaces guys - as soon as you can. Many here have shown you how to do DIY relatively cheaply, even portably. It's no big mystery, big expense, or big deal at all. If an old schmo like me can do it, so can you. Read here if you need to know more about the why's:

http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

Or try my well-trodden "room within a room" tracking approach with a few free-standing DIY broadband absorbers surrounding your tracking area & above. Blankets, curtains & pillows are NOT the 'control' answer boys.

If you cannot control your recording space, you'll never be able to control the consistency of your results. Even if you ARE an expert recordist. Ha! Why rely on luck if you stack the odds against you by not treating your space? When it's so easy to do? Or are you like most of us guitar types who simply don't like being "told" what to do? Even as a suggestion? HA!

alohachris

NOTE: If you want proof about the need for room treatment on solo acoustic guitar recordings, check out Barry's many AGF sample recordings over the years. Barry is becoming a really fine solo acoustic player. He keeps coming back again & again for opinions, inching closer towards his goal of clearer & consistent recordings with each iteration. Barry, you really can play! Latest efforts were very good, BTW, (but fully treat, lose that "bright" Furch & the 2035's to put you over the top), HA! -alohachris-

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

I'd say there is no one right way. Here is where and how one of the top-selling albums in the world was recorded"

https://themusicnetwork.com/billie-e...edroom-studio/

Yes, the sound quality from a properly-treated studio will make a difference, but sometimes it just doesn't really matter. Sometimes, working with what you have will be just fine.

Have you actually listened to that album? The music is almost entirely electronic and created through a midi controller. The room would play no part in music recorded with midi. And Eilish's vocals are whisper-singing. The room isn't really going to play a part in that either. On top of that, the album wasn't mixed in that room. It was mixed by Rob Kinelski who was mixing for a lot of top talent before Eilish. And it was mastered by John Greenham, another top guy in his field. Eilish had a record deal and that level of mixing and mastering talent was available to her. That's not the case for the 99.9% of people with home studios who wouldn't be able to afford it.

If Eilish were recording an acoustic album with even moderately loud vocals in her brother's small studio room, it would likely be a sonic mess. You could do drums in there but you'd have to replace all the sounds. Mic-ing amps would be very problematic. Loud vocals would not be without issues as well. Perhaps the tools exist today to make the amps and vox work but it would cost a small fortune to have someone with the prerequisite talent sit and do it.

But back to whether people here should invest in room treatment...
Something that I don't think has come up in this discussion yet is expectations. If a person is recording just for poops and giggles, perhaps, to them, noisy boomy tracks aren't bothersome. There's nothing wrong with less than stellar sound quality expectations if you're just looking to leave something around for the kids to listen to when they're feeling nostalgic after you're gone. But that level of quality is not everyone's goal. For those who seek better... well, you know.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by KevWind

BUT I would not advise somebody to buy a Ducati Superleggera V4 and race around Daytona before getting some boots, full leathers, helmet, and some lessons ,,juss sayin'

Off topic but I gotta....

I've never ridden a Superleggera but I have ridden the the Panigale v4. I've had a Ducati in my garage for many years but unfortunately I'm getting too old now and am retiring from riding this year. Mother nature has had her say But I can honestly say the Panigale v4 is the single most exhilarating ride of my life and I can only imagine a Superleggera. Whoosh!

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

I'd say there is no one right way. Here is where and how one of the top-selling albums in the world was recorded"

https://themusicnetwork.com/billie-e...edroom-studio/

Yes, the sound quality from a properly-treated studio will make a difference, but sometimes it just doesn't really matter. Sometimes, working with what you have will be just fine.

It probably doesn't matter to the vast majority of the listening public. Audio quality isn't much of a demand from the public who represent the average music consumer.

There are tons of examples of the "high and mighty" who indignantly insist that we must produce the highest quality material for the masses.

Neil Young's Pono Music is a great example of a great idea that the majority of listeners simply don't care about.

There are lots of examples of music that has less than stellar technical work but was still a huge success while recieving critical acclaim.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with striving for the best possible recording quality you can muscle up, but it's disingenuous to throw stones at those who are satisfied with lower standards.

Some of the posters here demonstrate indignant attitude toward those with a different viewpoint and it isn't an attractive quality. It's only someone else's feelings that they hurt.

[alohachris]

Aloha jim1960,

Excellent, very concise post above with great, well-informed examples. It reminded me of an old Michael Hedges song played with vocalist/composer Bobby McFerrin, "Streamlined Man."

"Point, to point, to point, in time. The 'Streamlined Man', in harmony with wisdom & restaint."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZUkxeSlBwU

Mahalo a nui, Jim!

alohachris

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by jim1960

Have you actually listened to that album?

Jim,

I've listened to much of it, not necessarily on purpose. I'm not in love with her music, but others are, and I am in love with the fact that they were able to do this in the bedroom of a modest two-bedroom track home, with minimal equipment, and then turn it into a massive international hit.

BTW, I don't disagree with what you're saying. I'm just saying that, depending on the music and the circumstances, room treatment, expensive mics and preamps, etc., may not be all that important, although all of those things, properly used, can and usually will enhance the recording and by extension the music.

Too often people get bogged down in the idea that only with the best equipment and well-designed room treatment can they make decent recordings. I'm a big believer in starting with what you've got and learning from it. IMO, that's the way you learn what will be right for you, and working in less-than-ideal environments can sometimes help you hone your craft, since you have to learn to use what you have to your best advantage. When I started playing guitar at age sixteen a Martin D-28 would have been wasted on me, but my used $5 Stella (AKA "finger-bleeder") got me going. I soon learned that I needed (wanted?) something better, and over the years I've moved up. The same has been true of my audio and recording environments. I haven't achieved perfection, but over time I improve things, and my sound gets better.

I worry about discouraging people from recording, or anything else for that matter, by telling them that they need to spend a fortune to get started.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

I worry about discouraging people from recording, or anything else for that matter, by telling them that they need to spend a fortune to get started.

Room treatment doesn't have to all that expensive. An investment of a couple of hundred dollars can greatly improve tracks recorded in an average spare bedroom or office.

In the Video Tutorials section of the Masterlist thread, I placed this video first and that wasn't random or by accident. I put this video first to show it doesn't take a major investment to get results. Tracking can be improved with the introduction of just two bass traps.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha jim1960,

Excellent, very concise post above with great, well-informed examples. It reminded me of an old Michael Hedges song played with vocalist/composer Bobby McFerrin, "Streamlined Man."

It always plays out the same way, Chris. People resist room treatment. It's almost always the very last thing and when they finally give in, it's with reluctance and a firm belief that it won't be especially helpful. Of course, the tune changes (pun intended) once they finally do make the commitment and adequately treat their room. I've never met nor heard of anyone who regretted room treatment once they did it. I think if we installed dummy vu meters and knobs on bass traps it would an easier sell.

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by jim1960

I think if we installed dummy vu meters and knobs on bass traps it would an easier sell.

I'll agree with that! Add some shiny parts as well!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

I'll agree with that! Add some shiny parts as well!

It's somewhat surprising that some of the acoustic materials companies haven't come up with something to make the change quantifiable - even if it would be somewhat bogus. Something that looks like a humidity gauge, but with an RT60 display would be a great sales tool, if nothing else. Even simple things like Room EQ Wizard are daunting for someone new to this.

[jim1960]

It's time for Funk Logic to make a come back and design something like the Funk Logic 3p-III Palindrometer but for bass traps.

Here's some testimony regarding this thing's efficacy...
"We used the 3P-III Palindrometer both during tracking as well as mixing, and really, ever since we installed the 3P-III in our rack, things have never sounded better. At one point, we had a record producer with us in the studio, and when he felt like our singer’s voice was missing just a little bit of sparkle, we bumped the Solos control up an extra 20 and he was floored by the sound of the next take."

[Doug Young]

Thats great. I need one of those!