Are certain spruces more "darker" sounding than others?

[D41Fan]

Like title says. Are there certain spruces for tops (obviously) that would promote a more darker sound than another? Lets say you had a medium brightness set of back and sides and wanted a darker sound, which spruce would you choose? Would the thickness of the top make a difference in tone rather than volume?

[gmel555]

I've just finished a discussion with the folks at Bourgeois about a spruce top on a custom build. Their reply was simple and emphatic: NO generalizations about tone between the different varieties of Spruce are true enough to make a decision on which one to use in a given application. It comes down to the individual piece of wood/tree, growing/harvesting/handling conditions, etc. And of course how the top is braced along with and the other elements of the guitar's build. That's not saying that a good Luthier can't choose the right top for the right body based on tap-tone, etc. and on what the buyer is looking for. It does say, however, that their decision would be based on examining the tops that are in hand, and pretty much ignoring the species designation.

Hard to imagine varying thickness not affecting tone in some way.

[Kerbie]

Originally Posted by gmel555

I've just finished a discussion with the folks at Bourgeois about a spruce top on a custom build. Their reply was simple and emphatic: NO generalizations about tone between the different varieties of Spruce are true enough to make a decision on which one to use in a given application.

Interesting that the fine folks at Bourg are willing to make such categorical statements. They certainly make very fine guitars. I've had extensive conversations about top woods with builders over the years and I'd have to disagree with them. Maybe that's why I don't own a Bourg.

I think it is certainly true that the factors contributing to sound are many and quite varied. And I agree that we can never be 100% sure that this wood will sound better than that wood until we hear it. But to suggest that no generalizations in sound and tone can ever be made and then hold true is nonsensical to me. We can't even make a generalization that helps us decide what top wood to choose? I've done it several times and each one has worked out beautifully.

To the OP's question, if I were looking for a "darker" tone, I probably wouldn't be looking at any Spruce. I might be looking more at Mahogany, Cedar, Koa or Redwood. So, are you limited to only Spruce?

[Wade Hampton]

I agree with Kerbie - having a western red cedar top is more likely to give you a “darker” sound.

All of the spruce species used for musical instrument construction can look and sound EXACTLY like every other spruce species. There are some general tendencies that can be said to be typical of different spruce species, but there are zero guarantees that any given guitar will follow and sound like what’s been predicted.

So don’t base any potential guitar purchases on what you’ve read or been told about these different spruce species.

Tonewood determinism is a bit silly, really, but that doesn’t stop players (and sometimes guitar builders) from making sweeping statements assigning specific characteristics to the spruce species of their choice.

But - seriously - take that sort of statement with a grain of salt.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Goodallboy]

They gave you an unpopular truth. We want to assign dependable traits to most anything we want to buy, from cars to guitars. With guitars, that’s impossible and that’s all they’re saying.

The construction of the guitar determines the sound, not the wood.

People have been so inundated with Bob Taylor’s Wood and Steel mag ( I love it BTW) pointedly stating that wood A sounds like blah, blah, blah, that it’s become accepted as fact. He’s a great marketer and he’s very effective at shaping opinion, but in this case, IMO, it’s in error.

I’m pleased to see a very respected company respond in the way they have.

[madison]

In the classical guitar world the great controversy is whether spruce or cedar tops are better. It's subjective, of course, but there does seem to be some agreement that cedar has a warmer and deeper tone while spruce has more brightness and clarity. There doesn't seem to be any consensus as to the differences among different spruces. Not sure how this translates to steel string acoustics.

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

................
All of the spruce species used for musical instrument construction can look and sound EXACTLY like every other spruce species. There are some general tendencies that can be said to be typical of different spruce species, but there are zero guarantees that any given guitar will follow and sound like what’s been predicted.........
Wade Hampton Miller

The info about Cedar should be very useful to the OP. I think your comment on spruces is just what the folks at Bourgeois were saying. You may have said it better than I repeated it.

[warfrat73]

I think we're fairly conditioned by convention to view (hear, rather) sitka as being a neutral starting point; neither particularly dark nor bright.

To my ear, Englemann and European spruces tend to have a bit more sparkle in the treble, and could therefore potentially be considered brighter than Sitka and Adirondack. Thus, Adi and Sitka could be considered darker sounding among the spruces (on average).

Though as mentioned, not nearly so dark as cedar and some other top woods.

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by Kerbie

Interesting that the fine folks at Bourg are willing to make such categorical statements. They certainly make very fine guitars. I've had extensive conversations about top woods with builders over the years and I'd have to disagree with them. Maybe that's why I don't own a Bourg.

I think it is certainly true that the factors contributing to sound are many and quite varied. And I agree that we can never be 100% sure that this wood will sound better than that wood until we hear it. But to suggest that no generalizations in sound and tone can ever be made and then hold true is nonsensical to me. We can't even make a generalization that helps us decide what top wood to choose? I've done it several times and each one has worked out beautifully......

Kerbie: I don't think B (or I) was saying no generalizations can ever be made period, but rather in the context of my discussion with them specifically deciding on a top wood, they advised not to make that decision on which spruce just based on species, because it's not a reliable indicator. My comment was "NO generalizations about tone between the different varieties of Spruce are true enough to make a decision on...." And as you say the factors contributing to sound are many and varied.

[Alan Carruth]

In an article in 'American Lutherie' R. M. Motolla wrote that if you want a 'dark' sounding guitar use a dark colored wood or finish. People listen with their eyes....

Sitka is often (but not always) darker colored than other spruces, and it's usually said to give a 'darker' sound...

I agree with Dana Bourgeois on this one: there's simply too much overlap between spruce species to make broad generalizations about 'the sound' of different species. Wade is correct in saying that Western red cedar (and redwood) are enough different that you might usefully be able to draw a contrast in the sound, but IMO spruce is spruce. This is all very complicated and difficult to test in any objective way: you're very likely to hear what you expect to hear.

[D41Fan]

Very interesting and informative statements. Its funny how some people are on the fence one way or the other. No doubt Mahogany or Cedar may tend to make a darker sound. I was just curious on peoples thoughts.
I may be interested in doing a custom Sassafrass back and size Taylor Grand Pacific. I was just curious the best top to match.

[jpmist]

Originally Posted by warfrat73

To my ear, Englemann and European spruces tend to have a bit more sparkle in the treble, and could therefore potentially be considered brighter than Sitka and Adirondack. Thus, Adi and Sitka could be considered darker sounding among the spruces (on average).

I'd concur with that as one of my OO's is a Sitka spruce/mahogany the other an Italian Spruce/mahogany OO. The Italian Spruce is brighter . . .

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

In an article in 'American Lutherie' R. M. Motolla wrote that if you want a 'dark' sounding guitar use a dark colored wood or finish. People listen with their eyes....

Sitka is often (but not always) darker colored than other spruces, and it's usually said to give a 'darker' sound...

I agree with Dana Bourgeois on this one: there's simply too much overlap between spruce species to make broad generalizations about 'the sound' of different species. Wade is correct in saying that Western red cedar (and redwood) are enough different that you might usefully be able to draw a contrast in the sound, but IMO spruce is spruce. This is all very complicated and difficult to test in any objective way: you're very likely to hear what you expect to hear.

Yes, I would think Dana knows a thing or two than most about tone and wood-type, since he's tapped and carved so many tops. I understand he's been responsible for those operations for a long time at points in his career in his shop.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by D41Fan

Very interesting and informative statements. Its funny how some people are on the fence one way or the other. No doubt Mahogany or Cedar may tend to make a darker sound. I was just curious on peoples thoughts.
I may be interested in doing a custom Sassafrass back and size Taylor Grand Pacific. I was just curious the best top to match.

If I was interested in pairing a sassafras back and sides with a top, my choice would probably be a redwood top. Redwood shares a lot of tonal characteristics with cedar, but as a rule it seems to have more “headroom” than cedar usually has.

By headroom I mean that redwood can be played a bit harder than cedar can before the sound starts distorting.

So redwood might be the more practical choice if you both fingerpick and strum with a pick.

A lot of people ordering custom guitars will decide to use so-called “sinker redwood, which is old redwood salvaged from the bottoms of rivers and lakes where it’s been laying for decades, perhaps even a century or longer. This sinker redwood is often flamboyantly colored from partial mineralization that’s been transferred from the water to the wood over the years.

Sinker redwood is often gorgeous to look at, but - truthfully - I’ve never played a guitar with a sinker top that I cared for, or would want to own. I know there are some great-sounding examples out there, some of which are owned by folks who frequent this forum.

But I’ve never played a guitar with a sinker redwood top that I’d want to own, and I’ve played every example that I could track down. Some of them that I’ve played did sound pretty good, but none that I ever had my hands on sounded great.

There’s a hefty up charge on any sinker wood, too.

So my recommendation is if you do decide on redwood is to just get regular redwood that hasn’t been submerged for decades.

Just a thought...


Wade Hampton Miller

[D41Fan]

Wade, I hope your still following this thread. What about a mahogany top? I was thinking something like Spanish Cedar or would that be too soft? I am mainly a light strummer and some hybrid picking? I already have a cedar topped dred with mahogany back and a sitka dred with Madi back.