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  #16  
Old 01-06-2019, 05:54 PM
Wadcutter Wadcutter is offline
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You're correct, Wad, although I think you're talking about the 1988 Air France crash at a French airshow. Here's the Wiki and the video.



There were several things that went wrong in that situation as there are in most crashes. The 320 really is kinda odd for most pilots. That's why I think most corporate pilots would want some help to land it in an emergency. The automation actually has sorta several levels. Even if you turn the autopilot off and think you're flying, it has some built-in protections that you really need to understand or the plane can resist your efforts.

I know of a 320 that came 400' from landing in the Mississippi simply because the pilots didn't understand the descent modes of the airplane. They were not able to spool up the engines when they wanted because their brains were in a different descent mode from the airplane. Like I said, it's tricky... but tons of fun!
Yup, THAT was the one Kerbie. Those poor people on that aircraft had plenty of time to see and know that that landing wasn’t going to end well. And that story about the 320 almost going into the soup, man that kind of stuff has me looking at train schedules when I need to travel cross country, even tho I know that commercial flying is safer than traveling by train. There’s just something that paralyzes my brain when I think about going down in in aircraft. I’m sure it has something to do with several Huey rides I had in Vietnam that barely made it in...and a few that barely made it out. God bless those Huey pilots is all I can say.
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  #17  
Old 01-06-2019, 05:58 PM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
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And that story about the 320 almost going into the soup, man that kind of stuff has me looking at train schedules when I need to travel cross country, even tho I know that commercial flying is safer than traveling by train.
Lol... you're right, traveling by air is a lot safer... and quicker.

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There’s just something that paralyzes my brain when I think about going down in in aircraft. I’m sure it has something to do with several Huey rides I had in Vietnam that barely made it in...and a few that barely made it out. God bless those Huey pilots is all I can say.
Oh yeah, that's a whole different ballgame, Wad. One of the joys of being an airliner pilot is that nobody has shot at me yet. You guys didn't have that luxury.
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Old 01-06-2019, 06:36 PM
Wadcutter Wadcutter is offline
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Lol... you're right, traveling by air is a lot safer... and quicker.



Oh yeah, that's a whole different ballgame, Wad. One of the joys of being an airliner pilot is that nobody has shot at me yet. You guys didn't have that luxury.
The bravest men I ever met in my life Kerbie were Huey pilots. These guys had stones of brass and many of us Vietnam vets wouldn’t be alive today if it wasn’t for those guys. Glad they finally got a special memorial for the chopper pilots in Nam who went above and beyond and paid the ultimate price.
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  #19  
Old 01-06-2019, 06:41 PM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
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Yes, sir... I agree. I've known several. Remarkable men. Bird Dog pilots and other forward air controllers were pretty amazing too.
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  #20  
Old 01-06-2019, 07:11 PM
Wadcutter Wadcutter is offline
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Yes, sir... I agree. I've known several. Remarkable men. Bird Dog pilots and other forward air controllers were pretty amazing too.
That they were Kerbie, that they were.
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  #21  
Old 01-07-2019, 02:02 PM
architype architype is offline
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I have a friend that is a private pilot and flies a Beech Baron. He's an experienced pilot. His buddy, that flies for UPS invited him to come and fly in the 747 simulator one Saturday. He said he took off OK, and flew around OK, but when he was making his approach to land he bottomed out on the runway and crashed. He said he forgot that he had about 20' of airplane under his butt instead of about 4-5 feet with the Baron.

His buddy laughed and said that is a pretty common thing if you are used to flying small aircraft.
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  #22  
Old 01-07-2019, 03:03 PM
Wadcutter Wadcutter is offline
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I have a friend that is a private pilot and flies a Beech Baron. He's an experienced pilot. His buddy, that flies for UPS invited him to come and fly in the 747 simulator one Saturday. He said he took off OK, and flew around OK, but when he was making his approach to land he bottomed out on the runway and crashed. He said he forgot that he had about 20' of airplane under his butt instead of about 4-5 feet with the Baron.

His buddy laughed and said that is a pretty common thing if you are used to flying small aircraft.
Reminds of that crash not too long ago in San Francisco I believe where the pilot misjudged the height of the sea wall he had to fly over on approach and broke the rear end of the aircraft off. Off course many deaths as a result. I just don’t see how an experienced commercial pilot can make a stupid error like that.
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  #23  
Old 01-07-2019, 04:02 PM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
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He said he forgot that he had about 20' of airplane under his butt instead of about 4-5 feet with the Baron.
Yeah, he's not the first to make that misjudgment. The 747 cockpit is 29' up... three stories up when you're on the ground.

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Reminds of that crash not too long ago in San Francisco I believe where the pilot misjudged the height of the sea wall he had to fly over on approach and broke the rear end of the aircraft off. Off course many deaths as a result. I just don’t see how an experienced commercial pilot can make a stupid error like that.
Actually, only three deaths resulted, although that's three too many. That was Asiana 214, a Boeing 777, in the summer of 2013. I remember it well... I've landed over that sea wall many times. It was probably not a misjudgment of the wall... what they failed to do was manage the approach and landing automation systems. Eight miles out, they were way too high and simply failed to managed the automation to get the airplane down and slowed at the same time. Doing both of those simultaneously can be challenging. At 2.5 miles out, they were about 500' too high, which is dramatically above the proper glide path. They should have executed a go around and set up the approach again. They didn't and through additional automation management errors, they got low and slow which is a dangerous combination. They never recovered and slammed the rear of the fuselage into the sea wall.

Their mistakes were very similar to what I said about the trickiness of flying the A-320. They had chopped all the power which is never appropriate at that point on approach. Then they got into a descent mode that did not allow the engine thrust to return to normal when it was needed. They just did a poor job of managing the automation systems on a beautiful, blue-sky day.
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Old 01-07-2019, 05:00 PM
Wadcutter Wadcutter is offline
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Yeah, he's not the first to make that misjudgment. The 747 cockpit is 29' up... three stories up when you're on the ground.



Actually, only three deaths resulted, although that's three too many. That was Asiana 214, a Boeing 777, in the summer of 2013. I remember it well... I've landed over that sea wall many times. It was probably not a misjudgment of the wall... what they failed to do was manage the approach and landing automation systems. Eight miles out, they were way too high and simply failed to managed the automation to get the airplane down and slowed at the same time. Doing both of those simultaneously can be challenging. At 2.5 miles out, they were about 500' too high, which is dramatically above the proper glide path. They should have executed a go around and set up the approach again. They didn't and through additional automation management errors, they got low and slow which is a dangerous combination. They never recovered and slammed the rear of the fuselage into the sea wall.

Their mistakes were very similar to what I said about the trickiness of flying the A-320. They had chopped all the power which is never appropriate at that point on approach. Then they got into a descent mode that did not allow the engine thrust to return to normal when it was needed. They just did a poor job of managing the automation systems on a beautiful, blue-sky day.
How do you figure that can happen Kerbie? How can two professional airline pilots whom I assume have flown into that airport scores of times, how can they possibly make an error in judgement like that? Were they just not paying attention? Doesn’t the co-pilot coordinate with the pilot and make sure all is well while the pilot is bringing her in? I don’t know, maybe these are just dumb questions from a guy who doesn’t know jack about what goes on in a cockpit. These kind of things fascinate me to no end.
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  #25  
Old 01-07-2019, 05:16 PM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
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I think I heard that there was a crew management problem where the co-pilot was afraid to question the judgement of the pilot. As I recall I saw it on one of those "Seconds From Disaster" shows and they said it had been a challenge amongst Asian pilots to get the whole mutual submission thing going.

Bob
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  #26  
Old 01-07-2019, 05:44 PM
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I think I heard that there was a crew management problem where the co-pilot was afraid to question the judgement of the pilot. As I recall I saw it on one of those "Seconds From Disaster" shows and they said it had been a challenge amongst Asian pilots to get the whole mutual submission thing going.

Bob
Now that is interesting Bob. So you could say I guess that perhaps cultural issues had a role in this crash. Man, you just never know.
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Old 01-07-2019, 07:13 PM
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Now that is interesting Bob. So you could say I guess that perhaps cultural issues had a role in this crash. Man, you just never know.
Yes, according to a couple of analysis shows I've seen, when the idea of cockpit crew coordination was introduced, the Asian lead pilots were resistant to considering their co-plots co-equals. It was a while back so I think they've gotten that one squared away.

Bob
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  #28  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:26 PM
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Yes, according to a couple of analysis shows I've seen, when the idea of cockpit crew coordination was introduced, the Asian lead pilots were resistant to considering their co-plots co-equals. It was a while back so I think they've gotten that one squared away.

Bob
One can only hope.
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Old 01-07-2019, 08:32 PM
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Read about the recent 737-8 Max/ Lion Air Crash.

Automation gone wrong due to a failed AOA sensor combined with confusing or lack of training on how to disable the “feature “.

I’ve been told the airline cockpit of the future will contain a man and a dog. The man is there to feed the dog. The dog is there to bite the man if he touches anything 😀

Rich
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Old 01-07-2019, 08:42 PM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
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How do you figure that can happen Kerbie? How can two professional airline pilots whom I assume have flown into that airport scores of times, how can they possibly make an error in judgement like that? Were they just not paying attention? Doesn’t the co-pilot coordinate with the pilot and make sure all is well while the pilot is bringing her in? I don’t know, maybe these are just dumb questions from a guy who doesn’t know jack about what goes on in a cockpit. These kind of things fascinate me to no end.
Fortunately, it's a pretty rare event, but those kinds of mistakes happen because pilots are humans just like doctors, lawyers and everybody else. Things can go wrong in a hurry when you're traveling at 200 mph. My feeling flying approaches in an A-320 was that almost anything that got me behind in my planning could be catastrophic. Modern airliners are so much sleeker than they were 50 years ago that the descent is challenging. The planes just do not want to slow down. And when you're trying to descend at the same time, it's twice as hard. In the first jet I ever flew, we rarely used speedbrakes (to slow down in the air). In the Airbus, they're used routinely. There is no other way to descend within the limitations placed on us by Air Traffic Control.

The automation is confusing for some. There are multiple descent modes from which to choose. Sometimes each mode controls airspeed and thrust differently. Fatigue may have been a factor. The landing was at the end of a long, half-day flight. The reasons for mistakes are endless.

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I think I heard that there was a crew management problem where the co-pilot was afraid to question the judgement of the pilot.
That certainly can be a factor, as with American 1420 in Little Rock in 1999. A chief pilot (management pilot) in the captain's seat with a first officer who had less than 200 hours with the airline... that can be a challenging situation. Some FOs find it hard to speak up to an experienced captain.

I don't believe that was the case in San Fran, Bob. Actually, it was practically the opposite. The left-seat captain was still in training on the 777. The last phase of training is called Initial Operating Experience and involves flying regular, revenue flights with a training captain who is flying in the right seat to assist in the education of the captain. The left-seat captain was flying... he had less than 40 hours in the airplane and it was his first landing ever at SFO. So, why the instructor pilot in the right seat failed to call for a go around is a mystery to me... a human error of judgment.
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