One Tube Combo to Rule Them All?

[ChrisN]

No, I'm not ready to buy that tube amp yet, but I'm advancing my knowledge and so arrived at another question.

I like/have both single coils (strat/p90, etc.) and HBs, and I like music that is mostly clean-to-modestly dirty/grindy, not metally distorted, but some pop, some classic rockish stuff, occasionally. I've seen references to "American" and "British" sounds/amps, and have noticed "American" seems to apply to single coils, while "British" applies to HBs, at least with respect to the music played on each.

Supporting that thesis are references by some here that it's nice to have both a Fender-type amp and a Marshall-type amp, which implies to me that each is "better" for its associated pickup type than the other.

Assume I've got S/S modeling amps and can experiment with different sounds that way, for now - I'm looking down the road a bit with this question.

Am I wrong that these amp types ("American" v. "British") are so specialized that neither does the other that well, such that 2 amps, ideally, are needed (or at least desired)? Or am I making something out of nothing?

If I'm even partly right, is there kind of a compromise tube combo that comfortably covers both singles/HBs for clean/mid-dirty and sounds great with both? I always come back to the Milkman Half-Pint, but $2300 list! Whew! Anything else that covers as much ground (versatile), sounds as good with both pickup types, and doesn't cost as much?

[Dru Edwards]

One of the big tonal differences between the Fender and Marshall tones (at least traditionally) are that Fender gives you those crisp, sparkling cleans whereas Marshall's clean is the opposite. It has to do with more than just tubes and speakers. Not sure if you can get both of those tones in a single amp ... you could probably get close to both though.

[Paleolith54]

I would not get hung up on the business of matching amps to pickups. Plenty of well-known players using single coils with Marshalls, humbuckers with Fenders, etc. Eric Johnson's rig is actually comprised of both, and he switches back and forth for clean and dirty tones.

Given what you described, you might consider a clean amp like a Fender with one or more pedals for dirt.

I use a Mesa Express 5:50 Plus along with some pedals and can get most any sound out of it.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

...is there kind of a compromise tube combo that comfortably covers both singles/HBs for clean/mid-dirty and sounds great with both? I always come back to the Milkman Half-Pint, but $2300 list! Whew! Anything else that covers as much ground (versatile), sounds as good with both pickup types, and doesn't cost as much?

Bugera V22 Infinium 1x12" combo: under $400 street (well under during Holiday/Coupon Day sales), and swap in a set of high-quality tubes and an Eminence Cannabis Rex or Swamp Thang speaker (not really necessary since the current Turbosound speaker actually sounds quite good, but I suspect you'll appreciate the higher efficiency and broader frequency range) - IME you won't need pedals (from your description our styles and instruments of choice are similar), you'll still come in around one-fourth the price of the Milkman, you're guaranteed to turn a lot of heads among veteran tube-amp players at your next gig (speaking from personal experience here), and should you need additional power/clean headroom the V55 goes for about $50 more...

Heck, for the price of the Milkman you could have both of them as well as the 1x8" V5 combo, both V22/V55 head versions, the T50 Infinium cage-style head (think big-poppa Vox Night Train), 1x12"/2x12"/4x12" cabs, and a few hundred to spend on a case or two of your favorite adult beverage...

Christmas comes but once a year...

[Bob Womack]

I've never found one amp that will do everything and I'm not hurting for numbers. I've seen few artists that have been able to either. Last time I saw him Joe Walsh used a pair of Dr. Z's Deluxes for his cleaner sounds and a Marshall for his dirt. Eric Johnson's rig is based upon a pair of Twins in stereo for his clean sounds and a Marshall, often with either a Fuzz Face or Tube Driver, for his dirty sounds. There are a lot of amps that allow you to choose many options on both the preamp and amplifier, but the whole list of differences that would need to be switched instantly... can't.

Now, let us look at the Marshall/humbuckers Fender/single coil hypothesis. From history, we know that isn't true. Strat players Jimi Hendix, Ritchie Blackmore, and Yngwie Mallardsteen all made their names with the Marshall. Joe Walsh used Fenders for both single and humbuckers as did Steve Howe. In the studio, the Allman Brothers hopped back and forth at various times. The current lineup of Wishbone Ash goes with Fender, Marshall, Orange, Mattamp, Vox, you name it, on various tours, using both humbuckers and single coils, as does Andrew Latimer of Camel.

Bon appetite!

Bob

[muscmp]

i'd agree with bob and add that this subject is very subjective. some will like singles with marshall and some with fender. same with humbuckers or p90s. there is no american vs british sound in that sense. it is more in the circuitry of the amps themselves.

i built a 58 deluxe clone with a marshall mod on one channel. it does sound like a marshall but the other channel is definitely fender.

i've found that i can get a decent sound out of any amp with any guitar with any pickups. may take a bit of tweaking, but it can be done.

play music!

[ChrisN]

I'm getting that, for amp choice, it's less about which pickup is used than it is about the amount of dirt preferred. The pickup issue comes into the equation only because of the degree of dirt, with super distortion more likely employed by HB players (who want to avoid hum), and nice cleans left to single coils. Hence, HBs and Marshall-types vs. singles and Fender-types. Then Bob complicates it with real life examples of Everyone Using Everything. If I'm not mistaken, I think the single-coil Status Quo boys used Marshalls and Vox AC30s for a good part of their dirty work.

And I'm getting that it's unlikely a single amp will do both dirty and clean well, which seems to support my thesis. The options are 2 amps, or 1 of the type preferred, plus pedals for the other. Since it's easier to "pedal" dirty than clean, that suggests looking more to the "clean" amp types.

I'm strictly a bedroom player, so Steve's V22 would need an attenuator to take full advantage (the 5w milkman has one on board, hence part of the $$), but I have saved everything Steve's written on that amp series.

[Johnny K]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Bugera V22 Infinium 1x12" combo: under $400 street (well under during Holiday/Coupon Day sales),

Christmas comes but once a year...

I'll give a plus 1 to this. I was at a local GC playing a bunch of Gretsch's and this is the amp i was playing them thru. I would buy one. And it's cheaper than than what I paid for my used 90's vintage USA made Fender Hotrod Deville 410.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Johnny K

...I was at a local GC playing a bunch of Gretsch's and this is the amp i was playing them thru. I would buy one...

Another satisfied customer...

Originally Posted by ChrisN

...I'm strictly a bedroom player, so Steve's V22 would need an attenuator to take full advantage (the 5w milkman has one on board, hence part of the $$), but I have saved everything Steve's written on that amp series.

If you - ahem - saved everything I've written about the V22 you may recall that it has a low-power setting, which not only provides you with practical bedroom-volume levels but also provides a range of very useful tones of its own, mostly of the pre-Top Boost Vox/TV-front tweed variety in clean mode with a nice "medium-brown" crunch in OD (coincidentally, I put in some time with the V22 and my White Falcon just yesterday - lotsa first-wave Brit-Invasion mojo going on there, especially with the mid-boost kicked in); by the same token, if you're looking at the 5-watt Milkman the V5 (which I also own) has a 3-step attenuator (5W/1W/0.1W) as well as a headphone out - $199 street, seen it as low as $149 on the floor at GC, and bagged mine for even less than that. One of these, a pair of decent tubes, an upgraded speaker (I'm using an Eminence 820H - sort of a baby Cannabis Rex), and a cover will set you back under $250 if you shop wisely; while it lacks the rarefied prestige factor of the Milkman, IME it's a solidly-built little bugger (these guys use machine screws throughout) that'll take everything you can throw at it and keep coming back for more - and if you decide you like the tone (think early tweed Champ with a pinch of British tea - this one clearly favors mini-buckers like the Gretsch Filter'Tron/Super Hi-lo'Tron and Gibson Johnny Smith/Firebird, as well as single-coils of all persuasions) but need more stage volume, you can have a wall of V5's for the price of one Milkman...

[PTony]

I’ve owned/own a 65 TRRI, Marshall’s, Vox’s, Bugera...and the list goes on. I must say that both Bugeras that I’ve owned (V22 & V55 “infinium”) have had issues. Both were purchased brand new in box. One had the channel selection go out roughly 2 weeks later, the other had the jewel light stop working within 2 days. Again, new out of box. Once I experienced this I was done with Bugera. While I’m sure that doesn’t happen to everyone, it was enough for me. I DID love the tones and features that came with these amps though.

I currently have set the 65 TRRI aside as it’s simply WAY more amp than I need. I’ve settled into my Egnater Tweaker 15 with 2 1-12 Egnater cabs for my home/studio use. Perfect!

It’s a Marshall, Vox, and Fender all in one. Plays very nicely with any guitar pickup configuration and takes pedals very well.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

If you - ahem - saved everything I've written about the V22 you may recall that it has a low-power setting, which not only provides you with practical bedroom-volume levels but also provides a range of very useful tones of its own, mostly of the pre-Top Boost Vox/TV-front tweed variety in clean mode with a nice "medium-brown" crunch in OD (coincidentally, I put in some time with the V22 and my White Falcon just yesterday - lotsa first-wave Brit-Invasion mojo going on there, especially with the mid-boost kicked in); by the same token, if you're looking at the 5-watt Milkman the V5 (which I also own) has a 3-step attenuator (5W/1W/0.1W) as well as a headphone out - $199 street, seen it as low as $149 on the floor at GC, and bagged mine for even less than that. One of these, a pair of decent tubes, an upgraded speaker (I'm using an Eminence 820H - sort of a baby Cannabis Rex), and a cover will set you back under $250 if you shop wisely; while it lacks the rarefied prestige factor of the Milkman, IME it's a solidly-built little bugger (these guys use machine screws throughout) that'll take everything you can throw at it and keep coming back for more - and if you decide you like the tone (think early tweed Champ with a pinch of British tea - this one clearly favors mini-buckers like the Gretsch Filter'Tron/Super Hi-lo'Tron and Gibson Johnny Smith/Firebird, as well as single-coils of all persuasions) but need more stage volume, you can have a wall of V5's for the price of one Milkman...

We need a "chagrinned" imoji, but this one will have to do.
I'd forgotten about the pentode/diode thing on the V22 as a power attenuator - you are correct! I knew the 5w had one, but also read it was actually a speaker attenuator, which I'd not heard of. Not sure how that's different, but it makes sense they couldn't use a typical $$ attenuator in a lower-end build.

I'm definitely not wedded to the milkman's prestige factor, but man I do like that punch-in-the-chest (I lack the amp lingo knowledge) they manage to get out of that box. I don't know if it's the real deal, or if they juice it in post-production, but regardless of the source, the MM vids deliver (the milk, if I can carry that metaphor 1 step further). Can the Bugera (big or small) get me close to that? I like the fact it seems to like mini-HBs AND singles.

Any waiting hum/hiss out of the V5s these days? Or are they quiet? I've read it both ways.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by PTony

I’ve owned/own a 65 TRRI, Marshall’s, Vox’s, Bugera...and the list goes on. I currently have set the 65 reissue aside as it’s simply WAY more amp than I need. I’ve settled into my Egnater Tweaker 15 with 2 1-12 Egnater cabs. Perfect!

It’s a Marshall, Vox, amd Fender all in one. Plays very nicely with any guitar pickup configuration and takes pedals very well.

Huh. I've not explored those, but will spend time on them - do you find their voicings "true"? Or "close enough"? I like the panel controls on the head, but crave a combo (top mount controls only) and lack room for a separate cab. Still, sounds intriguing.

The 65 reissue is a PRRI w/15w? How is that more amp than you need if the ET's 15w is OK?

[PTony]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Huh. I've not explored those, but will spend time on them - do you find their voicings "true"? Or "close enough"? I like the panel controls on the head, but crave a combo (top mount controls only) and lack room for a separate cab. Still, sounds intriguing.

The 65 reissue is a PRRI w/15w? How is that more amp than you need if the ET's 15w is OK?

They make it in a combo. And I’ve found them to be convincingly accurate. They’re truly impressive amps. I had another musician friend turn me on to them. Very versatile. And at 15 watts they have plenty of power when needed, or can be subdued for bedroom playing.

My 65 TRRI (Twin Reverb Reissue) is 85 Watts...all tube. Hence “wayyyy tooo much” for my home/studio needs. So she sits in my family room for now. Honestly the Egnater has provided the Fender tones that I love, but also the Vox and Marshall tones that I NEED (lol).

And it takes pedals like a champ. The biggest “issue” is it doesn’t have 2 channels, and no reverb. But, I’m a pedal junkie so that didn’t turn me off to it. It does have an effects loop which matters more to me than footswitchable channels.

Hooked up to my boost, a TS, then my Morning Glory, and my EQ devices “Dispatch Master” (delay/reverb) it sounds really, really good.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

...I'm definitely not wedded to the Milkman's prestige factor, but man I do like that punch-in-the-chest (I lack the amp lingo knowledge) they manage to get out of that box. I don't know if it's the real deal or if they juice it in post-production, but regardless of the source, the MM vids deliver (the milk, if I can carry that metaphor 1 step further). Can the Bugera (big or small) get me close to that? I like the fact it seems to like mini-HBs AND singles.

Any waiting hum/hiss out of the V5s these days? Or are they quiet? I've read it both ways.

In order:

• As I said earlier, you can put together a real little tone monster on the V5 Infinium platform for around $250 total. First thing you'll want to do is replace the tubes with some quality glass; I'm using Preferred Series Soviet-era stuff from thetubestore.com (they make a package specifically for this amp BTW) to replace the POS $1.29 OEM tubes, and right from the get-go it made all the difference in the world - rest assured Milkman is using something of comparable quality to get that punch-in-the-chest sound you rave about...
• While a bigger amp will always deliver more dynamic range, reserve power, and clean headroom - as every jazz player knows, "good" electric guitar tone isn't always about massive amounts of gain and distortion - my little V5 can get surprisingly loud, enough so that it's my go-to for band rehearsals (we're not a high-volume outfit) and small-venue/coffeehouse gigs (where I've been asked to turn down on occasion); with a pair of P-90's (got a Godin CW II and LP goldtop) it has a very broad "sweet spot," that point of preamp/power-amp saturation balance that lets you ride the line between clean and grit with the most subtle variations in picking technique, and a Gretsch at the same settings will have you channeling every Cavern Club-era George Harrison lick you can think of. What the V5 does lack is the frequency extension offered by the larger cab and 12" speaker of the V22 (FYI the V5 will easily drive an extension cab so this may not matter to you), which will not only allow you to achieve the same pre/power balance at higher (but still usable) volume, but offers the option of an independent OD channel and mid-boost - and if you've followed my posts you know that, between the two power levels (not just for "practice" BTW), EQ, and channel-switching, there's a truckload of tones in there...
• I've been a Bugera owner since early 2010 - two in my stable and more likely to come, depending on our band's needs this coming year - and nearly all of the bad press (100% justified, I might add - never buy a used Bugera combo) was confined to the first-run/first-edition "blue-light" models which, as with many other products that have come to market, I attribute to initial production bugs. They've long since been worked out BTW - my very late '09 "blue-light" V22 has been trouble-free since day one, and while there may indeed be individual pieces with hum and/or hiss, FWIW I've also encountered the occasional tube Fender, Marshall, Vox, Laney, Peavey, Egnater, Blackstar, etc. over the years with similar issues; sometimes it's as simple as a gassy tube or a poor solder connection - and the good thing about a mass-production amp purchased from a major retailer is that it can either be returned/exchanged within a reasonable time if you feel it's not up to par, or you can elect to have it serviced under warranty...

If you've got the Milkman in your blood there's nothing wrong with that - I waited 55 years to get my hands on a double-cut Gretsch White Falcon - but the V5 really is quite a little tone machine, and for the extremely reasonable asking price you almost can't afford not to have one if you're a fellow tube junkie...

[DukeX]

Over the years and lots of research, here are the bedroom amps I have acquired:

- Vintage Sound Amps V-15, hand built Blackface Princeton Reverb clone ($1,595). VSA also makes a 5W version. You'll need a pedal to get much overdrive on the V-15 at bedroom levels, but the cleans are superb.

- Lil Dawg D-Lux head, hand built Fender 5e3 Tweed Deluxe clone ($650). Built my own speaker cab. Beautiful Tweed cleans and legendary natural overdrive.

- Vox AC4HW1, hand wired AC4 with top boost tone stack ($800). Sparkling cleans and great Vox overdrive.

These are all wonderful bedroom amps, and they all complement each other. If I could only have one amp it would be the 5e3 Tweed Deluxe.

I play a Tele and a Dot ES-335 through all three.