Played the new Taylor V Braced....

[KarlK]

Originally Posted by Picker2

In addition, even if Taylor’s story about V-bracing did make sense, it would only work if the guitar were perfectly tuned to exactly concert pitch, and very carefully played. But the mere concept of playing a guitar like a human and not like a robot, assures that any ‘balance’ between the top and the string will be disrupted as soon as you press a string sideways a little, fret it a tad harder, or drag it up or down. Which is what I do all the time, and which makes me sound like me!

To me it seems Andy made some rumors from the cello world, which he did not quite understand in detail (or he would have explained it better) and cooked it into a blend of pseudo science and marketing. Funny to see how many folks buy his story - in that sense he is a genius indeed.

I’m sure the guitars are fabulous. But the concept of V-bracing versus intonation does not make sense, based on fundamental principles.

This comment gets to the heart of the matter about V bracing.

Andy makes the claim that the intonation of these Taylor's is perfect up and down the fretboard, and that a higher octave chord voicing is sonically equivalent to a lower ocative voicing, and perfectly balanced in sustain and volume.

These are extraordinary claims. And as the logicians might say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Guitars are great, but as I tell my non-musician friends, they are ALWAYS out of tune. It's just a matter of degree.

My nephew is a classically trainined basoonist, and he said when he shaved a reed "just so" he could simply play and not worry --or at least worry much -- about pitch control. But those reeds were few and far between.

Wood, holes, strings, and air movement -- well you've got a complex combination of factors that make "perfect" unattainable.

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by EDyer

I'm not crazy about their marketing either, but to equate Taylor to In & Out Burger seems pretty harsh and over the top, doesn't it? Good grief.

Why not? In & Out makes perhaps the best mass produced burger, well above the likes of McDonalds and Burger King, etc... In & Out also has many celebrity endorsements, but then you know these same celebrities eat at much finer establishments.

A guess some would argue a 900 series Taylor is in leagues with a Martin Authentic or something from Foggy Bottom, Santa Cruz... It's all subjective, I guess...

[Br1ck]

I think those who have brought up manufacturing costs have hit the nail on the head. First and foremost, Taylor has been an innovator in manufacturing efficiency. Their neck attachment had everything to do with ease of manufacture. They realize that with the increase in amplified acoustics, certain characteristics may be favored over others. Finding a way to do that economically will really benefit the bottom line. Realizing that wood quality on a grand scale is deteriorating, they think that long term if they can give consumers benefits like volume and sustain, they can mitigate quality material issues in the coming years. Actually really forward thinking on their part.

Now I have no doubt that a v braced 300 series will come at a price, and the marketing guys' job is to justify that. Now given that their industry growth seems to be at best, flat, they need a way to sell more guitars to old guys with too much money. The younger folks are just trying to keep a roof over their heads. So start with the 900 series and sell one of them to every dude who already has two or three. That is a prudent thing to try to do. So make them cheaper and sell them for more is a great way to stay afloat in a flat market.

What percentage of youth today is spending time learning to play vs playing video games or any of the other things not available to those in the past? It will take a cultural phenomenon akin to The Beatles to reinvigorate the market with youth.

[breezy]

This post has some truth to it, many makers - even Taylor sales are flat and unfortunately the comment on youth and guitars is on target.

[KarenB]

Originally Posted by KarlK

This comment gets to the heart of the matter about V bracing.

Andy makes the claim that the intonation of these Taylor's is perfect up and down the fretboard, and that a higher octave chord voicing is sonically equivalent to a lower ocative voicing, and perfectly balanced in sustain and volume.

When I read the article about V-Bracing in the current issue of "Wood & Steel," I did not walk away with the impression that Andy claims "the intonation of these Taylor's is perfect up and down the fretboard." Rather that it's an improvement. From pg 12: "Andy’s V-bracing makes the top much happier to vibrate at the same frequency as the strings compared to an X-braced top. As a result, we only hear the slight discrepancy caused by even temperament tuning and not the added dissonance we’re used to hearing from the top. Sonically, it’s a huge improvement."

People can download the pdf of the current issue from this page:
https://www.taylorguitars.com/wood-and-steel

You can read about intonation and equal temperment tuning beginning on 11. And equal temperment is something I as a human strive for.

I'm curious. I'm not a person that listens to what other people say about something and then take it automatically for my truth. For me the proof is in the pudding and my ears. If it sounds better to me, that's what matters.

The folks at Taylor guitars are masters of marketing. If they happen to make some good/great sounding guitars along the way, that's fine by me.

[MChild62]

Innovation and marketing are not mutually exclusive, and I think there’s a false tension being implied in some of the discussion. I work for a company that makes heavy equipment for the oil and gas industry. Our marketing department is deeply involved in studying trends, what our customers need, and suggesting product and service improvements. Our engineers on R&D teams would be lost without these critical inputs.
Saying the v-bracing is “just Taylor’s marketing” may ignore that it goes hand in hand with the ability to innovate and execute on new ideas.
I’m looking forward to trying one of the new models...I was saving up for a Martin D-28 for a birthday in a few years but now I think I will compare old and new Taylor 6/7814’s and the D-28...

[ntotoro]

The bottom line really is that some people will like the different bracing and some won't, but Taylor really plays up their marketing.

The tout adi spruce bracing as an upcharge and when it's standard, it's always on a higher-end model, a limited or offered as an upgrade because it makes the guitar sound more "springy" or whatever marketing they use.

Meanwhile, makers like Bourgeois use it on every single model. Taylor even markets adi tops as some sort of great secret. It's all about marketing and if you never go outside the Taylor bubble, you don't see it.

Nick

[mrgraveline]

Originally Posted by ntotoro

The bottom line really is that some people will like the different bracing and some won't, but Taylor really plays up their marketing.

The tout adi spruce bracing as an upcharge and when it's standard, it's always on a higher-end model, a limited or offered as an upgrade because it makes the guitar sound more "springy" or whatever marketing they use.

Meanwhile, makers like Bourgeois use it on every single model. Taylor even markets adi tops as some sort of great secret. It's all about marketing and if you never go outside the Taylor bubble, you don't see it.

Nick

Really terrible analogy here. How many Guitars a year and at what average price does a company like Bourgeois sell? How many people even see a Bourgeois in any given year? Your example is like scolding Toyota for calling auto defrosting side mirrors an upgrade because those are standard features on a Maserati. Cargument over.

[ntotoro]

Originally Posted by mrgraveline

Really terrible analogy here. How many Guitars a year and at what average price does a company like Bourgeois sell? How many people even see a Bourgeois in any given year? Your example is like scolding Toyota for calling auto defrosting side mirrors an upgrade because those are standard features on a Maserati. Cargument over.

I'm not talking about cost, other than bringing up that Taylor charges extra, I'm talking about marketing. Taylor will market adi bracing and tops as some special, secret ingredient to take their guitars over the proverbial edge to be offer sparingly when you have other builders who... that's just what they put on their guitars.

You don't see Toyota marketing defrosting mirrors as what takes their cars from a 7 to a 10.

Nick

[KarlK]

Originally Posted by Antaren

When I read the article about V-Bracing in the current issue of "Wood & Steel," I did not walk away with the impression that Andy claims "the intonation of these Taylor's is perfect up and down the fretboard." Rather that it's an improvement. From pg 12: "Andy’s V-bracing makes the top much happier to vibrate at the same frequency as the strings compared to an X-braced top. As a result, we only hear the slight discrepancy caused by even temperament tuning and not the added dissonance we’re used to hearing from the top. Sonically, it’s a huge improvement."

People can download the pdf of the current issue from this page:
https://www.taylorguitars.com/wood-and-steel

You can read about intonation and equal temperment tuning beginning on 11. And equal temperment is something I as a human strive for.

I'm curious. I'm not a person that listens to what other people say about sometheing and then take it automatically for my truth. For me the proof is in the pudding and my ears. If it sounds better to me, that's what matters.

The folks at Taylor guitars are masters of marketing. If they happen to make some good/great sounding guitars along the way, that's fine by me.

Thanks for that. I will take a look at it.

I got my impression from Andy's almost quasi-religious disquistions at NAMM, many of which you can find on youtube.

I will say that this sentence you quoted really stuck out:

"Andy’s V-bracing makes the top much happier to vibrate at the same frequency as the strings compared to an X-braced top. As a result, we only hear the slight discrepancy caused by even temperament tuning and not the added dissonance we’re used to hearing from the top"

In other words, "hey, it's not the same, but it's the same." It's another verson of an "extraordinary claim."

Moroever, this is a physics claim, not a musical claim, so presumably it can be tested. Has it? Can it be tested?

I'll have to get out and try these things out. In the end, you are absolutely right. Do I like the way they sound, all that marketing and -- at least to me -- crazy physics stuff is immaterial to what one hears.

[KarenB]

"I got my impression from Andy's almost quasi-religious disquistions at NAMM,"

KarlK--anyone who uses the word "disquistions" has got to be in the vocabulary top 1% on this forum. Maybe in the English speaking world! I had to look it up. I love words, so thanks for teaching me a new one.

Karen

[Wags]

Originally Posted by milehimagic

I had the opportunity to play the new V Class Bracing guitars a few nights ago in Denver. Taylor had a new product showing at the Denver Folklore Center. The place was jammed, maybe about 50 people and it was so crowded, people were standing in the doorway. As you would expect from a Taylor rep, very polished, knew his stuff and was a decent player.

During the intro statements, the rep made some very interesting comments:

He made a unique comment in that when he took the new 914ce home and started playing it he noticed that unlike a normal rosewood back and side instrument, this 914 didn't have the normal midrange "swoop." I found that interesting in that I thought that is why you choose different tone woods. Strange but true.

Secondly and most importantly, he made the direct statement that by the end of 2018 all GA's from the 300 series up will have the new V bracing.

How do they sound.....first let me state, I play a 214ce, love it and love Taylor. That's the good news, now the bad news, me and many of the attendees were somewhat/very disappointed.

Before we had the chance to personally play the instruments, one of the attendees asked the rep to play an 814ce DLX to compare it to the 914ce V Braced he had with him. Although the 914ce was noticeably louder (strumming??). the 814ce DLX was much much clearer and articulate. Truly the "Taylor Sound" we have grown to enjoy over the years. Sorry for the poor layperson descriptor but that's the best way I can describe it. Now to the reps defense, he didn't want to do it the comparison, up to and including asking the audience if the wanted him to do it, and was kind of forced into it. Mistake..... I think the most telling comment of the evening was after the rep did the comparison and asked (and I am paraphrasing) "what did you think?" and the only response was from a woman in the front row who said, "it was louder."

Given the large number of attendees, you could only audition the instruments for a few moments and as much as it pains me to say it, I think that Taylor has really missed the mark. With that being said, some people thought they sounded really good. Bottom line, we all have different tastes. I like vanilla and you may like chocolate.....nothing wrong either way!

I went into this process looking for a new guitar...I think I found it, the 814ce DLX.....before they change to the new V bracing.,

I just got back from the Taylor dog and pony show here in PDX. They sure were pretty. Really can't make a valid judgment on how they sound since there were many yahoos like me whacking them around all at the same time and the rep was playing through a mic. I'll go back some time during the day when no ones there so I can actually hear them. Doubt I'll be moving "up". Very happy with my 814CE DLX. Plus, I've got guitars that cover most niches (kinda think I want a resonator, though)

When he started saying that the new V bracing magically affects the intonation I sorta scratched my head. Don't see how that could be. Anyhow, got a t shirt.

[Billkwando]

Originally Posted by Antaren

"I got my impression from Andy's almost quasi-religious disquistions at NAMM,"

KarlK--anyone who uses the word "disquistions" has got to be in the vocabulary top 1% on this forum. Maybe in the English speaking world! I had to look it up. I love words, so thanks for teaching me a new one.

Karen

A thousand times, this. I like to think I know some werdz, but that one sent me running to Google. That was a good one. Another fun one is "defenestration" Hard to believe there's a word for that, but there is!

[jstroop]

Originally Posted by Billkwando

A thousand times, this. I like to think I know some werdz, but that one sent me running to Google. That was a good one. Another fun one is "defenestration" Hard to believe there's a word for that, but there is!

You and some buddies are in a bar when a redneck-caliber fight breaks out ... tell your mates, “It’s time to absquatulate!”

[Herb Hunter]

I’m not interested in how a prospective guitar sounds in the hands of someone else. What matters to me is how it sounds when I play it. For example, a guitarist who uses a pick will make a given guitar sound brighter than a guitarist who plays with the flesh of his fingers.