K&K Pure Western Mini

richyirich · #1 01-31-2009, 09:29 PM

I recently acquired a used Martin 000-1 with K&K Pure Western Mini pickup already installed. I plugged it into my Ultrasound DS4 amp, and I was very disappointed by the sound. I have a Martin dreadnaught with Fishman Matrix Infinity pickup, and it sounds awesome when plugged into my Ultrasound.

A local guitar tech that I deal with from time to time once told me that active pickups sound a lot better than passive ones. Is this the case with my K&K since it's passive whereas Fishman is active?

sdelsolray · #2 01-31-2009, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richyirich

I recently acquired a used Martin 000-1 with K&K Pure Western Mini pickup already installed. I plugged it into my Ultrasound DS4 amp, and I was very disappointed by the sound. I have a Martin dreadnaught with Fishman Matrix Infinity pickup, and it sounds awesome when plugged into my Ultrasound.

A local guitar tech that I deal with from time to time once told me that active pickups sound a lot better than passive ones. Is this the case with my K&K since it's passive whereas Fishman is active?

No, it's not. The first thing to do is get a small mirror and look at the installation of the 3 K&K transducers in your new guitar. Are they glued in place or attached via the tape method? Are the installed correctly? Firmly? You can loosen the strings and touch them.

Also, tweak your eq on the Ultrasound amp. But the bass conrol significantly. How does that sound?

How long is the cable you are using?

Even if nothing is "wrong", you still might prefer your other pickup. SOme folks like a UST sound over a SBT sound.

open-road-matt · #3 01-31-2009, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

Even if nothing is "wrong", you still might prefer your other pickup. SOme folks like a UST sound over a SBT sound.

sdelsolray could be on to something. I love the K&K PWM when I hear others play it but it seems to be just so-so with my playing style.

Matt

sdelsolray · #4 01-31-2009, 10:54 PM

I've found it good, but not "complete" as a single source. I prefer the PUTW #54 over the K&K mini, slightly.

I would enjoy wiring up a guitar with a Schertler DYN-G internal pickup and a mic.

richyirich · #5 01-31-2009, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

The first thing to do is get a small mirror and look at the installation of the 3 K&K transducers in your new guitar. Are they glued in place or attached via the tape method? Are the installed correctly? Firmly? You can loosen the strings and touch them.

Also, tweak your eq on the Ultrasound amp. But the bass conrol significantly. How does that sound?

How long is the cable you are using?

Even if nothing is "wrong", you still might prefer your other pickup. SOme folks like a UST sound over a SBT sound.

According to the previous owner, K&K was installed professionally by an experienced luthier. I changed the strings yesterday, and the pickup was glued in place.

I usually turn down the bass and turn up the treble. I'll experiment with the knobs and try it again tomorrow.

By the way, what do UST and SBT stand for?

patrickgm60 · #6 01-31-2009, 11:47 PM

You'll likely find a big improvement if you use one of K&K's preamps. I never play my PWM-equipped gits without the preamp.

UST: under-saddle transducer (e.g. Fishman Matrix)
SBT: sound board transducer (e.g. PWM)

alohachris · #7 02-01-2009, 12:00 AM

Aloha,

UST - Under Saddle Transducer SBT - Soundboard Transducer

I agree that you should continue to tweak the EQ, connection, etc. on the K&K before you give up on it. I have three K&K mini/ AKG 416 mic combos in my three self-made gigging guitars and they beat the pants off the Fishman Matrix UST I used to use. There is no comparison to me, especially for more natural sound. A K&K/ mic combo is hard to beat for natural acoustic sound. Think about using that combo with your Ultrasound.

I also agree that you should try out one of the K&K preamps (or better ones like the DTAR Solstice). Many seem to have better luck with the K&K P/U(especially with controlling bass and mid frequencies as SDELSOLRAY said) if they use a preamp that's compatible with the unusual 1 MoHM impedance of the K&K.

Trust your own ears!

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

tbeltrans · #8 02-01-2009, 06:15 AM

Since having a professional install of the PWM system in my Cargo, I have done quite a bit of experimenting with the sound. Granted, the Cargo presents a bit of a challenge, probably due to its small size and maybe the carbon fiber used in its construction. The "challenge" is the serious midrange component of the resulting sound.

Anyway, I tried the setup directly into my amp (with and without EQ somewhere in the setup), through preamp with parametric EQ that presents the requisite 1 Meg Ohm impedance, and through other EQ pedals that present the proper impedance.

The results were interesting. Run directly into the amp with no EQ other than that already in the amp, the sound was dark, which would be
reminiscent of the old style archtop for solo chord melody playing, but not
really suitable for much else, and finally, placing a 1 Meg Ohm resistor across the pickup. I got varying degrees of success with the other
configurations, some of which would probably be perfectly usable in most situations.

But the absolute best results came with the K & K XLR Pure Preamp. The top end opened up dramatically, and the overall sound was reasonably balanced, though there was still a bit more midrange than I wanted. So I experimented a bit more, using a Boss 7 band graphic EQ pedal that I essentially rebuilt with a mod kit from Ebay. The results were very, very good at that point. But I went a step further after reading somebody in these forums mention the Electro-Harmonix KnockOut pedal. As nice as the sound was with the Boss pedal, the KnockOut pedal was even better, and that is the setup I have settled on.

So my final setup after all this is the Cargo with the K & K PWM system going into the K & K XLR Pure Preamp going into the Electro-Harmonix KnockOut pedal, and finally going into the AAD Cub amp. I am truly happy with the sound I get from this setup. I would not go without the K & K preamp when using the PWM pickup system.

When talking about "impedance", remember that this means that the "resistance" is variable with frequency, which is far more complex than a simple constant resistance. I had the math involved in all this in electronics school years ago, when it was presented as "AC theory". K & K designed their preamps with their pickups in mind, and comparing their preamp to a Carl Martin semi-parametric EQ/preamp pedal (which is also a very nice preamp that also presents a 1 Meg Ohm input impedance), the K & K sounds more full and the high end is more open. It isn't that the K & K is overall a better preamp than the Carl Martin, but instead that it's unique characteristics are better suited to the specific situation presented by the K & K PWM system.

When installed properly and put through the K & K preamp )and any additional tweaking you might want), I personally find this setup to sound better than anything I have used before. Of course, I have not played around with having multiple mics and pickups going at the same time on the same guitar. I do have a DYN-G and probably should try that with the K & K someday.

I have yet to hear a UST setup that I like. The ones I have heard (including the factory setup for the Cargo) have an annoying "splatty" component to them. Many people like that sound, but it bothers me for some reason. The only thing I can figure is that different people's ears respond at least somewhat differently to different frequencies (I know this for a fact due to experimentation I and other techs did when I was working at a hearing aid company back around 1979 - 1980). Those differences in hearing could be enough to highlight the "splattiness" for me and not for somebody else. In any case, my K & K PWM setup exhibits absolutely none of those annoying components and therefore sound altogether decent to me (though somebody else might hear something in that sound that they find annoying).

It is unfortunate that the task of finding the right sound for your ears can be a bit expensive and take a lot of experimenting, but in the end, the results are worth it.

Tony

derek2400 · #9 02-01-2009, 08:20 AM

What is the optimal length of chord one should be using with the K&K?

tbeltrans · #10 02-01-2009, 08:42 AM

I just use my normal guitar cord from my guitar to the preamp. I would guess it is a 10 foot cord, but am not really sure it matters very much. I have the preamp setting on top of the amp, and the next pedal sitting on the floor, so there is another normal guitar cord going from the preamp to the KnockOut pedal, and then another to the amp input.

Also, with the K & K XLR Pure preamp, you can run it on either a 9v battery OR phantom power. If the preamp detects at least 10v of phantom power, it uses that instead of the battery. I use a Rolls PB32 phantom power supply. The phantom power is connected to the XLR connector on the preamp. Normally, one would get this from a mixing board. The increased voltage provides more headroom and you don't have to worry about not having changed the battery. As far as I am concerned, if you lose AC power, you don't have the amp anyway, so the preamp doesn't matter in that situation anyway.

I have also been experimenting a bit with looping lately. The loop device goes between the output of the KnockOut pedal and the amp input. I have the Digitech Jamman, the Hardwire DL-8 (which is really a delay pedal, but provides 20s of loop too), and the Boss RC-50.

Personally, I don't care much for the Digitech Jamman because it adversely alters the sound of the guitar, though it is well built and the feature set is good, especially since it uses Compact Flash cards. The RC-50 and the DL-8 both sound quite good, since they don't seem to affect the sound of my guitar. Though the DL-8 is essentially a Digitech product, it was made by a company that Digitech acquired. Time will tell if Digitech lets them do what they do best or whether Digitech decides to interfere. For now, the Hardwire pedals are excellent quality, and I have never gotten a sound I liked from anything Digitech. But due to its feature set, the Jamman is a really good practice tool. The DL-8 is very simple, and the RC-50 is very powerful. I will eventually end up with only one of these two, since my end goal is to spend time with all this stuff and keep only what I REALLY use. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to really get to know a piece of gear without living with it for some time and using it.

Tony

sdelsolray · #11 02-01-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

When talking about "impedance", remember that this means that the "resistance" is variable with frequency, which is far more complex than a simple constant resistance. I had the math involved in all this in electronics school years ago, when it was presented as "AC theory". K & K designed their preamps with their pickups in mind, and comparing their preamp to a Carl Martin semi-parametric EQ/preamp pedal (which is also a very nice preamp that also presents a 1 Meg Ohm input impedance), the K & K sounds more full and the high end is more open. It isn't that the K & K is overall a better preamp than the Carl Martin, but instead that it's unique characteristics are better suited to the specific situation presented by the K & K PWM system.

Tony

It's not that the K&K preamp is better for the K&K pickup because it's designed for the K&K pickup. It's simply a better preamp and eq than the other(s) you've tried. The Pendulum SPS-1 is vastly better than any K&K preamp with a K&K pickup. That's not because the SPS-1 was designed for the K&K pickup. It just demonstrates that the SPS-1 is a much better preamp than any of the K&K products.

The preamp and eq circuits in the K&K preamps are standard and mundane designs. There's nothing in them that is "special".

mellowman · #12 02-01-2009, 11:21 AM

I think the K&K mini sounds as good as any other pickup I've heard. I've got one in my Martin OM-28V and it sounds very nice after tweaking the eq a bit with a Baggs Padi. Very warm and woody sounding. That said, it still doesn't match the natural tone of using a mic only. I use an AKG 535EB and will use that alone when playing live unless feedback becomes a problem in which case I mix in some of the K&K.

Michael T · #13 02-01-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

It's not that the K&K preamp is better for the K&K pickup because it's designed for the K&K pickup. It's simply a better preamp and eq than the other(s) you've tried. The Pendulum SPS-1 is vastly better than any K&K preamp with a K&K pickup. That's not because the SPS-1 was designed for the K&K pickup. It just demonstrates that the SPS-1 is a much better preamp than any of the K&K products.

The preamp and eq circuits in the K&K preamps are standard and mundane designs. There's nothing in them that is "special".

I would tend to agree the SPS-1 is a highly refined preamp and an excellent choice. With that said however the 1 Meg Ohm input impedance is defintately a plus to look in preamps for for the PWM pick up. The Baggs Para I had worked but entailed lots of tweaking to produce acceptable sound for me, the K&K XLR is basically a plug and play with them. I also find my Boss GE7 is easy to use with the K&K (again a 1 M Ohm) just a bit noisier. A preamp is a preamp but the vast majority are designed for the 10 Meg systems that are much more common, they can be dialed in but it seems like more work to me. It also follows that the higher up the food chain the equipment and your knowledge of it's use you go the cleaner the chain. For me, I am a simple minded player, the easier the better.

kramster · #14 02-01-2009, 11:45 AM

Tony,
Thanks for all the info on your Cargo. I am having the PWM installed this week and bought the Pure XLR (which works quite well with the 5i and matrix). I have a non souped up GE7..... I will try the Knockout I think.
Please please try the DYN G with the Cargo as I might want to try one of those with my Unico and the Bose...(and trigger finger is a ready),,, thanks for all your experimenting and good reading.

Doubleneck · #15 02-01-2009, 12:04 PM

I have the infinity as well and what I think you have going here is that the infinity has a much improved preamp and you are getting right out of the guitar a very good "eq" ed sound. All pickups need eq. and you have to add it to the K and K. I am sure that if preamped it will sound great also. I really like the infinity in that I can plug in and sound very good in a pinch. I now eq it with a baggs padi and use fishman aura pedal. Really very good.
Steve