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  #1  
Old 09-08-2020, 03:14 PM
MarkinLA MarkinLA is offline
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Default Need Help W/ Tango en Skai /Dyens

Hi.
I have loads of trouble getting those 5 inverting diminished chords smooth..
I realize they each have the triplet grace notes before each one, struck with
i m a, on the e string, then thumbed across the 4 strings on down..
But I just can't get it silky smooth like so many do on videos I see..Even at very slow tempo it's clumsy..
Any advice is appreciated.. This is on HT Savarez Corums on a Cordoba C10.
Thanks much, Mark
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  #2  
Old 09-08-2020, 03:36 PM
Su_H. Su_H. is offline
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I like to help. Can you post a screenshot of those measures?
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Old 09-08-2020, 03:48 PM
Su_H. Su_H. is offline
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Also, from my experience, most grace notes are slurs. Just by what you described, it sounds like it should be slurred...meaning you would strike the fourth and 6th strings once and the rest of the notes are produced by hammer-ons or pull-offs......but i could be wrong. I don't know that piece.
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Old 09-08-2020, 06:03 PM
FrankHS FrankHS is offline
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Mark, I recall you asking same question a few weeks ago; I was intrigued but kept my mouth closed because you received some good answers and hints. Furthermore, it seemed so strange that you claimed to be able to play the rest of the piece "pretty well," just not this part: measure 7, right? Some of those other fast runs appear to be 100% more difficult than this! So (back then) I worked on that bar and got it sounding good, to about 95% speed, in about 10 minutes. Nothing seemed unusual in the context of a Dyens arrangement, which are often high level anyhow. You claimed to have "no problem with the 3 note tremolo." But you had only had trouble with the thumb smoothness at speed. Thing is, the thumb note IS part of any conventional tremolo. Maybe find some Youtube tutorials about regular pami tremolo. Get that smooth-it may take weeks or months- then come back to measure 7. The difference there will be the downstrum of 4 strings: a,m,i, downstrum pulgar. Repeat, repeat. And no, it doesnt matter whether your thumb can bend back or not. My thumb stays a bit bent at the middle (MCP?) joint, toward my "i", to avoid arthritic pain. No problem to get a good downstrum with this bar 7. Your wrist will rock a little bit due to the strum, but it still feels like a tremolo, more or less.
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Last edited by FrankHS; 09-08-2020 at 06:31 PM. Reason: DYENS, Not Dylan. Dylan couldnt play guitar. In
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  #5  
Old 09-08-2020, 06:56 PM
FrankHS FrankHS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHS View Post
Your wrist will rock a little bit due to the strum, but it still feels like a tremolo, more or less.
Edit: It's not a "regular" tremolo because the pulgar strum is given more time than the a,m,i notes. But original point remains-the a,m,i are not grace notes, and can be played strongly, not brushed lightly, for best effect.
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Ryoji Matsuoka M30 classical
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  #6  
Old 09-08-2020, 07:11 PM
Su_H. Su_H. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHS View Post
Edit: It's not a "regular" tremolo because the pulgar strum is given more time than the a,m,i notes. But original point remains-the a,m,i are not grace notes, and can be played strongly, not brushed lightly, for best effect.
Thanks for clarifying that, Frank.
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Old 09-08-2020, 09:10 PM
CosmicOsmo CosmicOsmo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankHS View Post
Edit: It's not a "regular" tremolo because the pulgar strum is given more time than the a,m,i notes. But original point remains-the a,m,i are not grace notes, and can be played strongly, not brushed lightly, for best effect.
Agree that this is mostly the same movement as a standard a-m-i tremolo, and if you can do that well this shouldn't be too hard.

One detail that may help: when I play this piece, I rest my thumb on the 4th string while I play the a-m-i, then use a flamenco-style turn of the wrist to get a nice, forceful pulgar strum. Already having the thumb prepared on the 4th string will help to smooth that out, if you're not already doing that.
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2020, 06:09 PM
MarkinLA MarkinLA is offline
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Frank.
I wanted to get back to you way sooner. But I can't describe the log-in problem that occurred out of the blue !! I did something which made me have to go through hoops and walk barefoot on broken glass to be able to finally get to this point right here on this late date !! But, finally, I'm back in !!
Please accept my apology for my apparent repeat of the same OP I'd entered quite a while back and which you graciously had replied to then.....
I'm not senile but at 72 you might just find yourself completely forgetting some event or other; some conversation; some famous actor's name, or things like buying again the same soup you swore you'd never buy again, but here you are at home, starving !!!
So, thank you again for your repeated advice on my trouble with the Dyens piece...
Coincidentally, due to braking my 'm' fingernail badly, I smoothed it out then brought the other 2 down to it's [about] 3/64" depth...I became a strong advocate for short nails decades ago but forgot (there's that 72 thing !). I played so much better this way, and over several years wound up employing longer nails !! Now they're all short and shaped...
Though still not perfect, now the situ with 'Tango' is starting to get better...
The i /m/a triplet is smoothing out some...
Thanks, again,
Sorry about what happened, Mark

Last edited by MarkinLA; 09-17-2020 at 06:15 PM.
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  #9  
Old 09-18-2020, 06:11 AM
FrankHS FrankHS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkinLA View Post
...
...Please accept my apology for my apparent repeat....
So, thank you again for your repeated advice on my trouble with the Dyens piece...
I did not comment at all within your first thread, I merely recalled the first thread, and remember having pondered it, and learned the phrase in question. And no apology necessary. Sometimes I go fishing in the same spot where I caught no fish the week before.

Glad you found a solution, and if you are mastering this piece at age 72, I tip my hat to you. Hope you will record the results some day, and post here.
__________________
Cordoba C10 Cd/In (2014)
Mossman '73 Flint Hills (dreadnaught)
Ryoji Matsuoka M30 classical
https://m.soundcloud.com/frank-hoops...ad-a-brain-arr
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  #10  
Old 09-18-2020, 06:24 PM
MarkinLA MarkinLA is offline
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Cool

OH, just one more !!
My problem with Tango en Skai is/was not actually the little triplet pickups/grace notes, themselves..
At one time (and getting back to today) I played "Requerdos de la Ahambra", no lie, I'd say, perfectly...But that was quite a long time before I became a bassist which blossomed for 35 yrs from Elec. into upright jazz gigs, and union, Local 47, commercial work (where I'd be lying if I told you I never played 'dark' dates as well. Too many, in fact !) and retired from completely in about 2010 (actually that was for Soc.Sec.). The gigs began fading sharply in about circa 1995-ish and so quit the union..Why continue to pay dues if the phone has stopped ringing ?! All the above affected my guitar playing in both bad ways and maybe some good ways (good more on the the J guitar side than the C guit.side, playing bass next to great guitarists/pianists on a milieu of gigs; getting those great chord substitutions happenin', findin' new ones !!/ some great drummers teaching everyone where 'one' is !)......
Back to the Tango !!
What the problem is, is more in gaining a smooth even thrumb across the 4 strings with 'p' a milisecond after the pickup, in tempo...BUT I began doing something new: I do not release LH pressure between each chord..as if it's one big glissando for the LH...I thought it a long time back but was avoiding doing that more so because it threatens the life of the stings; the worst being the D string's windings, but all of them bearing the shock of the passing frets ! And this seems to have unleashed the secret ingredient (well, for me, anyway) ! I began getting the 5 amigos into a nicer flight pattern !! ....
So I'll hit it again tonight and to hell with the poor strings (very new Sav HT Corums/Cordoba C10)....
If, if that is the ticket, then at least I know what it is I now need do...maybe.....

M

Last edited by MarkinLA; 09-18-2020 at 07:21 PM.
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  #11  
Old 09-18-2020, 07:28 PM
MarkinLA MarkinLA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Su_H. View Post
Also, from my experience, most grace notes are slurs. Just by what you described, it sounds like it should be slurred...meaning you would strike the fourth and 6th strings once and the rest of the notes are produced by hammer-ons or pull-offs......but i could be wrong. I don't know that piece.
I appreciate your input. But don't ya think it's a bit moot if you know not what the real situ is/feels like ?
But since I have your attention, I highly suggest you avail yourself of the piece via GSP or SheetMusicPlus, et al....At least watch it on YT ! M
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  #12  
Old 09-25-2020, 09:22 PM
MarkinLA MarkinLA is offline
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~~~~ THIS JUST IN !!! ~~~~
The entire strain of the 5 rolling Dim. chords has become tons and tons better for me ! I believe my very recent returning of my RH nails to the short length I prefer and play better with [1/16"] yet had forgotten about for a very long time until, has opened this door for me, along of course with all the input you all gave me, as well...
It's startin to look good !!!
Thanks again,
Mark Harris,
Los Angeles
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