2012 000-15sm - genuine mahogany or sipo/sapele?

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by bufflehead

Although Martin makes a handful of models from sapele, the 15 series is not listed among them.

I'm clearly not against sapele guitars, by the way. Of the four guitars listed in my signature, two have sapele BS, and the other two are mahogany.

.

Martin has not used Sapele (Entandrophragma cylindricum) for years in their US factory. It's used extensively in their Mexican plant.

If their specification reads "Genuine Mahogany" then it is Swietenia macrophylla

If their specification reads "Mahogany" it is Sipo, Khaya, or even actual Mahogany depending on their materials inventory.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

..........The Martin simple dovetail is not tapered. The traditional Martin dovetail is. Maybe you have a better way to describe these.

A dovetail is a very specific type of joint in wood working.

"Simple Dovetail" is a Mortise and Tenon.

I'm not going to pass judgement on which is better, I just don't want the marketing boys trying to tell me it's something it isn't because they invented a new marketing term.

[redir]

Technically speaking I think a dovetail is actually considered a mortise and tenon joint. The 'simple' dovetail would be better named a 'straight' dovetail. it has the dovetail shape but it doesn't taper down to a point in length. In cross section is still has that V shaped dove tail so it still locks in place. It's jsut easier to do with a router or CNS so they call it simple I guess.

[fazool]

Originally Posted by Tony Burns

could be either -they use to mix them up back then -....

That was my understanding as well - they started using Sipo and Sapele interchangeably (calling it "mahogany") depending what they could procure.

They reserved real mahogany for more expensive models and listed it as "genuine mahogany".

I had two 000-15, one 000-15M, an OM-15 and a D-15M.

The 15's are my favorite Martin. I like the older real mahogany ones, personally. I think it has more low end and I like the cosmetics a lot more too.

On a side note. I think the fact that Martin is calling something "genuine mahogany" and then something else "mahogany" implies that they know it's not "genuine mahogany" but they are still calling it "mahogany". I know it's all marketing nonsense but (just to me) it feels like they are saying:

"this here is genuine mahogany" and
"this is fake mahogany"

Sort of like the back and sides: If you don't explicitly say it is solid, then you know it's not solid. If you don't explicitly say it's genuine, your default is not genuine.

Martin is one of my favorite American companies but I think this just seems to push the boundary of being misleading. Almost dishonest. If they use Sapele, just say it. Same with Sipo.

[guitar george]

Yours looks like genuine mahogany. I believe that if there is an "M" in the model number, such as in your 000-15SM, it would be made with genuine mahogany. Without the "M" it could be mahogany or sapele.

Here are pictures of my Martin D-15S that is made with genuine sapele. Sapele usually has wide parallel grain that is easy to spot.

MARTIN D15S.jpgMARTIN (8).jpg

[gmel555]

Based on Martin's website they still clearly distinguish between Mahogany and Sapele. They specifically identify the 000-15SM as using "Mahogany" (not Sapele) and their Tonewoods section identifies Mahogany by species as SWIETENIA MACROPHYLLA. This species is the true mahogany that grows in tropical regions of the Americas. The same Martin tonewood page lists Sapale, ENTANDROPHRAGMA CYLINDRICUM as a separate tonewood. Unless there was a special run of Sapele 000-15sm's it seems pretty clear the standard tonewood is mahogany for 000-15sm.

[Simon Fay]

Originally Posted by redir

Technically speaking I think a dovetail is actually considered a mortise and tenon joint. The 'simple' dovetail would be better named a 'straight' dovetail. it has the dovetail shape but it doesn't taper down to a point in length. In cross section is still has that V shaped dove tail so it still locks in place. It's jsut easier to do with a router or CNS so they call it simple I guess.

Right and wrong. Right in that technically speaking, a large number of joints incorporate a "mortise" and a "tenon" BUT in woodworking, stating "mortise and tenon" joint usually means the mortise and tenon are square/rectangular and 90 degree interface. In other words, the "mortise and tenon" joint will usually refer to a specific type of "mortise and tenon" joint if that makes sense.

In general woodworking terms, the dovetail joint refers to the interface beneath the heel - the "triangular" shaped pocket in the headblock is not what makes the joint a dovetail but rather the interface between the sides of the "tenon" and the "mortise". So Martin is being accurate in their description

[fazool]

Originally Posted by guitar george

Yours looks like genuine mahogany. I believe that if there is an "M" in the model number, such as in your 000-15SM, it would be made with genuine mahogany. Without the "M" it could be mahogany or sapele....

Nope - exactly the opposite. The old ones (1990's) had no "m" designation and they were real mahogany. When they reintroduced the line, they added the "M", then they quickly loosened their definition of "mahogany". if you have a 000-15, you have real mahogany. If you have a very early 000-15M, you have real mahogany. If you have any 000-15M after that, it is Sipo or Sapele.

[fazool]

Originally Posted by gmel555

Based on Martin's website they still clearly distinguish between Mahogany and Sapele. They specifically identify the 000-15SM as using "Mahogany" (not Sapele) and their Tonewoods section identifies Mahogany by species as SWIETENIA MACROPHYLLA. This species is the true mahogany that grows in tropical regions of the Americas. The same Martin tonewood page lists Sapale, ENTANDROPHRAGMA CYLINDRICUM as a separate tonewood. Unless there was a special run of Sapele 000-15sm's it seems pretty clear the standard tonewood is mahogany for 000-15sm.

If you filter by top woods, the only instruments they make with "geniune mahogany" are the 00-17 and their ukuleles. Everything is "mahogany" (aka sipo or sapele).

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by fazool

Nope - exactly the opposite. The old ones (1990's) had no "m" designation and they were real mahogany. When they reintroduced the line, they added the "M", then they quickly loosened their definition of "mahogany". if you have a 000-15, you have real mahogany. If you have a very early 000-15M, you have real mahogany. If you have any 000-15M after that, it is Sipo or Sapele.

Sounds good to me! When did they reintroduce the line? Mine's a 2009.

When I bought the D-15S new in 2009, the very knowledgeable and reputable guitar shop owner confirmed it was mahogany - but I didn't really believe him because of the striped grain lines.

Here's the back of my Taylor 512-M and this is what I think genuine mahogany should look like.

TAYLOR 512-M (6).jpg

[fazool]

Originally Posted by guitar george

Sounds good to me! When did they reintroduce the line? Mine's a 2009.

When I bought the D-15S new in 2009, the very knowledgeable and reputable guitar shop owner confirmed it was mahogany - but I didn't really believe him because of the striped grain lines.

Here's the back of my Taylor 512-M and this is what I think genuine mahogany should look like.

Attachment 16891

I agree - your's looks like Sapele.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by fazool

That was my understanding as well - they started using Sipo and Sapele interchangeably (calling it "mahogany") depending what they could procure.

They reserved real mahogany for more expensive models and listed it as "genuine mahogany".

I had two 000-15, one 000-15M, an OM-15 and a D-15M.

The 15's are my favorite Martin. I like the older real mahogany ones, personally. I think it has more low end and I like the cosmetics a lot more too.

On a side note. I think the fact that Martin is calling something "genuine mahogany" and then something else "mahogany" implies that they know it's not "genuine mahogany" but they are still calling it "mahogany". I know it's all marketing nonsense but (just to me) it feels like they are saying:

"this here is genuine mahogany" and
"this is fake mahogany"

Sort of like the back and sides: If you don't explicitly say it is solid, then you know it's not solid. If you don't explicitly say it's genuine, your default is not genuine.

Martin is one of my favorite American companies but I think this just seems to push the boundary of being misleading. Almost dishonest. If they use Sapele, just say it. Same with Sipo.

Nice (past) collection of the 15 series, Fazool. I think they are great guitars to hold on to for aging and maturing for increasing performance. Sorry you let those go.

[muscmp]

Originally Posted by DefendTheLowEnd

How are you able to confirm that your 2014 is mahogany?

as others have said, by the "M".

play music!

[fazool]

Originally Posted by muscmp

as others have said, by the "M"....

See reply 24. Martin really confused everyone by adding the "M" then stopping the use of real mahogany.

[Jaden]

Anytime there is discussion of ‘mahogany’ I become sceptical due to tiny natural supply and also much more plentiful plantation stock which is quickly harvested and not let grow to true old growth. Scarcity of it makes me not want to seek it in a new instrument. Give the resource time to grow back.