Lessons, and there are lessons.

[rllink]

I was talking to my friend, another guitar player, and he is always bragging about being self-taught. He likes to tell me that I think because I've taken some one-on-one lessons. So we go to the same jam and I've noticed that every time, we leave with something new we've learned.

I go to bluegrass festivals. I attend workshops. There are lots of "self-taught" guitar players at those workshops learning new stuff. Just because one hasn't ever taken lessons, doesn't mean they are self-taught and just because some has taken lessons doesn't mean they aren't figuring out a lot of stuff on their own as well. When it gets down to it, is anyone self-taught?

Actually, I think my friend is learning a lot from me and I'm learning a lot from him. We each pick up different things as we go along. We are teaching each other and calling it self-taught because neither of us is a teacher.

[JonPR]

"Self-taught" only means "learning from everything except lessons"!

I like to say I'm "self-taught" but I know very well it means "not having one-on-one lessons with a teacher".

Of course, I learned from (a) a tutor book, (b) songbooks, (c) records (by ear), (d) playing with friends in a band, (e) reading theory books.
I taught myself using whatever info and resources I could find; except actual teachers. I.e., except qualified music teachers, because of course all those other things were my "teachers".

And in fact, I did have music lessons at school, before I was ever interested in guitar. That's where I learned notation, which was extremely useful when "teaching myself" from songbooks.

Some 35 years later, I did take a couple of one-on-one lessons - and actually learned a couple of valuable things.

The real big difference is that "self-teaching" means you never get any objective critical feedback. Of course you get occasional comments from other people and, very occasionally, things you might class as constructive criticism (rather than just people liking what you do, or not). But only a teacher sitting in front of you can properly address anything that really needs to be addressed, by checking everything you do.

[Jack the Pearl]

Amen to the posts above.

I take lessons, from a pro, at a conservatory. He's a very good guitarist and, in my retired teacher opinion, a very good and effective teacher. He's on vacation right now.

I was left to practice a single page chord melody piece of gospel/soul/R&B music to perform as a solo in a few months. I really like this piece, and always have. I'd embarrass myself if I didn't play this tune well in performance so I've really been grinding on it in my "perfesser's" absence. Amazing what I've taught myself in his absence, just by paying persistent attention.

There are many ways to learn. They're all good. So rock on.

[john57classic]

Self taught is a phrase I always thought was inaccurate at least for the vast majority, but as jonpr said in the vernacular I guess we all generally hear it as “no lessons”. Having said that, when someone tells me they are self taught I usually reply with something like “wow, how did you figure out how to tune it?”😂

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by john57classic

Self taught is a phrase I always thought was inaccurate at least for the vast majority, but as jonpr said in the vernacular I guess we all generally hear it as “no lessons”. Having said that, when someone tells me they are self taught I usually reply with something like “wow, how did you figure out how to tune it?”😂

Right. Or even "how did you work out which way up to hold it? How did you even know it was a musical instrument?"

The other interpretation of "self-taught" is "taking lessons from someone with no qualifications".

Then again, when you actually have lessons with a teacher, it's still the student's responsibility to learn. You have to make sense of all that stuff, by actually doing it (between the lessons), same as you do when "self-teaching". A one-on-one teacher is just a resource, like any other. Just better than any other!

[tbeltrans]

There are enough terms floating around that are vague enough to have many interpretations, literal and otherwise. We recently had quite a thread about "chord melody" vs "fingerstyle", and now "self taught".

I have always understood "self taught" to simply mean the person didn't take formal lessons. I think it is pretty well understood that we are always learning from something or somebody, just maybe not in a formal student-teacher environment.

The problem I had with teachers was finding one that fit what I was looking for. What I found with "music store" teachers was that the teaching was rather piecemeal as in "today, let's do this" rather than setting a long term goal that might take a few years, and then working consistently lesson by lesson toward that.

I would want to sit down with a prospective teacher so s/he could determine what my goals are and what I need to work on to achieve them. Of course, I, as student, would need to determine that this particular teacher is capable of playing and teaching that style, which are two very different things. This, of course would require a long term commitment on the part of both student and teacher. and I don't see that happening outside of a formal degree program - that is, until we started seeing all manner of teaching available online.

Today, we are fortunate to have access to some pretty decent teaching online. I have collected some long term materials from the likes of Robert Conti and Jake Reichbart, for example. They have teaching videos and PDFs, rather than regular zoom type live lessons. So you are still on your own, but with good guidance. So it is entirely possible to take lessons these days without being limited to whomever is teaching locally. If you see the person on youtube and wish to learn how to play in a similar style to that person, it is likely the person has a teaching web site where you can evaluate his or her teaching style and lesson coverage.

Since I have been learning in that manner, I guess I can no longer claim to be completely self-taught, but I am also a better player for having done these studies.

Tony

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rllink

I was talking to my friend, another guitar player, and he is always bragging about being self-taught.

Hi rllink
Self taught is still 'taught' (and learned).

I taught formal lessons for 40 yrs for $$$, and everybody - including my hundreds of students - is self-taught. We just have a myriad of sources.

I even taught my students about taking 'free' lessons. You see someone play something you want to learn, ask them to play it for you again (if you are at a small venue) and pull out your phone and ask if you can video it.

I've never been turned down, and some of these guys get $80 hr when you take lessons, & I just got a free lesson from them!!

I pay $12 month for YouTube premium (no ads), and I've certainly gotten a ton-o-free lessons there.

[Bluenose]

I much agree with tbeltrans that the information is easily accessible now but there is so much of it that it can be overwhelming and confusing. I don't profess to be a great musician but at my ripe old age of 69 I now understand some vital concepts that I wish I knew 40 years ago. If I only had someone to take the time to show me I would have been much better for it. The bottom line is if you are seeking a teacher, I suggest you find someone that has had the benefit of a formal musical education. Just because someone can play some stuff doesn't make them a teacher.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Bluenose

I much agree with tbeltrans that the information is easily accessible now but there is so much of it that it can be overwhelming and confusing. I don't profess to be a great musician but at my ripe old age of 69 I now understand some vital concepts that I wish I knew 40 years ago. If I only had someone to take the time to show me I would have been much better for it. The bottom line is if you are seeking a teacher, I suggest you find someone that has had the benefit of a formal musical education. Just because someone can play some stuff doesn't make them a teacher.

This is very true. However, there are some good players that are also very good teachers without having a formal education in doing so. There are some who teach who have had a formal music education, but for some reason aren't very good at teaching, unfortunately. Our job as prospective students is to find a good teacher who can teach us what we want to play.

I specifically mentioned Jake Reichbart and Robert Conti because my interest lies with chord melody. Both of these guys are working pros and both have teaching materials that are very effective. Very different teaching styles between them, but both can effectively teach how they do what they do.

Conti has a series books with DVDs called the "Source Code" series and also a number of books and DVDs teaching how to play specific tunes. The Source Code books teach you how he does what he does in the materials that teach how to play tunes. He has a very clear and direct means of teaching and in each of his Source Code books, he tackles one concept such as chord melody or improvising, rather than trying to cover it all in one book. Each book that comes with a DVD uses the DVD to further explain and demonstrate each lesson in the book. The DVDs are typically about 2 hours in length and some books have more than one.

Jake Reichbart has lots of download video lessons, each walking you through how he arranged the tune and presenting many other ways to approach a given section. Each lesson is between 60 and 120+ minutes in length, and only deals with the one tune. He does have a couple of similarly long lessons teaching harmony or arranging too. These have no printed materials. You follow along with guitar in hand. His goal is to teach you to come up with your own arrangement, probably using some of his ideas, though he also does show you pretty much how he played it among all the other ideas.

I am not suggesting that people should get lessons from these two players or that having a formal music education is not important for some teachers, but am using them as an example of what quality teaching by working pros who also happen to be able to get their ideas across to a student effectively through books and videos. I am sure one can find such quality in most any style, but you have to look carefully before investing your time and money.

Tony

[rllink]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi rllink
Self taught is still 'taught' (and learned).

I taught formal lessons for 40 yrs for $$$, and everybody - including my hundreds of students - is self-taught. We just have a myriad of sources.

I even taught my students about taking 'free' lessons. You see someone play something you want to learn, ask them to play it for you again (if you are at a small venue) and pull out your phone and ask if you can video it.

I've never been turned down, and some of these guys get $80 hr when you take lessons, & I just got a free lesson from them!!

I pay $12 month for YouTube premium (no ads), and I've certainly gotten a ton-o-free lessons there.

I think that's what I'm saying. Most everything I know, someone taught me in some way.

[Bluenose]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

This is very true. However, there are some good players that are also very good teachers without having a formal education in doing so. There are some who teach who have had a formal music education, but for some reason aren't very good at teaching, unfortunately. Our job as prospective students is to find a good teacher who can teach us what we want to play.

I specifically mentioned Jake Reichbart and Robert Conti because my interest lies with chord melody. Both of these guys are working pros and both have teaching materials that are very effective. Very different teaching styles between them, but both can effectively teach how they do what they do.

Conti has a series books with DVDs called the "Source Code" series and also a number of books and DVDs teaching how to play specific tunes. The Source Code books teach you how he does what he does in the materials that teach how to play tunes. He has a very clear and direct means of teaching and in each of his Source Code books, he tackles one concept such as chord melody or improvising, rather than trying to cover it all in one book. Each book that comes with a DVD uses the DVD to further explain and demonstrate each lesson in the book. The DVDs are typically about 2 hours in length and some books have more than one.

Jake Reichbart has lots of download video lessons, each walking you through how he arranged the tune and presenting many other ways to approach a given section. Each lesson is between 60 and 120+ minutes in length, and only deals with the one tune. He does have a couple of similarly long lessons teaching harmony or arranging too. These have no printed materials. You follow along with guitar in hand. His goal is to teach you to come up with your own arrangement, probably using some of his ideas, though he also does show you pretty much how he played it among all the other ideas.

I am not suggesting that people should get lessons from these two players or that having a formal music education is not important for some teachers, but am using them as an example of what quality teaching by working pros who also happen to be able to get their ideas across to a student effectively through books and videos. I am sure one can find such quality in most any style, but you have to look carefully before investing your time and money.

Tony

I'm talking more about music theory in general. I learned more about theory watching Ted Greene videos and his Chord Chemistry book than any lesson a teacher gave me and I've had a few teachers along the way. That guy really knew his stuff and he was quite a player as well. More than 500 people attended his funeral which should tell you something.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Bluenose

I'm talking more about music theory in general. I learned more about theory watching Ted Greene videos and his Chord Chemistry book than any lesson a teacher gave me and I've had a few teachers along the way. That guy really knew his stuff and he was quite a player as well. More than 500 people attended his funeral which should tell you something.

Yes, I am familiar with the work of Ted Greene, having donated to the memorial site, having studied from his books, etc. I stand by what I said in my previous post even though it apparently doesn't address what you were/are getting at.

There is surprisingly little theory that most need to know to understand what they are doing if it is typical pop music. That area of knowledge is known as diatonic theory: how to spell chords, the harmonized major scale (i.e. what chords typically belong in a key), how scales are derived from the chromatic scale (the interval template), etc.

That is a major flaw of so-called self-teaching is going "down the rabbit hole of theory", learning a lot of stuff that one might never apply to practical usage. A good teacher would be teaching such theory in the context of the songs, whether s/he had formal music training or not. I suspect that if one had been a student of Ted Green, that theory would come up in the context of the song(s) being studied rather than as a separate subject on its own where it has little practical value. When learning something new, to me the foremost question would be "how can I use this?". That alone could prevent going down such a rabbit hole and keep things on track.

If you are interested in and studying the work of Ted Greene, you might want to take a look into Tim Lerch, who was a student of Ted's and now is actively involved in teaching and performing. He has a web site, a youtube channel, and a number of courses on Truefire. Another is Leon White, who has a web site with song lessons teaching his approach to chord melody as well as having published some well thought of books over the years. I am sure there are others that I don't know about.

Tony

[mawmow]

I would say I am mostly self-taught : I learned a few open chords at school,
then the guitar died in a cold and damp basement closet.

I got another one some years later and began to buy fake books and a book
of chords. I learned to play basic arpeggios in one of those books later on.

So I went that way for many years until I turned to fingerstyle and then got
tab books and instructional videos (Homespun and Vestapol companies).

I finally took one-on-one sessions with a professional player to enhance my skill.

Am I self-taught? Not really.

[rmp]

I think it's just regardless of how you get where you are, playing this instrument is a lifelong journey, and none of us will ever know all there is to know, or 100% master this thing.

That said, we should be willing to help one another at any point in time, because we all got something to give back here.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by rllink

I think that's what I'm saying. Most everything I know, someone taught me in some way.

Hi rl-etc
I didn't invent much of my playing in a vacuum. I'm a product of mostly learning things played by my guitar 'hero' and stuff I admired that others played.

When I found myself saying 'that was cool!' it wasn't long before I was looking for recordings of it (these day YouTube versions), and digging it out and fitting it into my library of licks.

With my flair and personal sculpting of course…