The 24 year old genius....

[fitness1]

Yes, 11/17/70 is goose bump material! A whole lotta music coming out of three guys - and the drums are spectacular!

Could you imagine being in the room when that was being recorded!

[fitness1]

On my way home today one of my favorite "newer" Elton tunes came on my car player - one most have likely never heard. Thought I'd share it as there seem to be a few fans here

GREAT Lukather guitar solo.....and more of a "rocker" than many of his tunes

[kurth]

....not enough credit for Bernie. In fact imho, Elton's just a sophisticated technician ....the poetry came from Bernie.

[fitness1]

Originally Posted by kurth

....not enough credit for Bernie. In fact imho, Elton's just a sophisticated technician ....the poetry came from Bernie.

Oh no - they were a package! Here's a good article from about 7 years ago in Rolling Stone.

Both immensely talented. You don't make it 5-6 decades in the business otherwise!!

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...-new-lp-59194/

[Feste]

Originally Posted by kurth

....not enough credit for Bernie. In fact imho, Elton's just a sophisticated technician ....the poetry came from Bernie.

While I can appreciate the praise and admiration for Mr. Taupin, the melody is just as important, if not crucial and essential, to the process and end result. Listen to Taupin's own solo albums, particularly Tribe, a real gem IMO. You will hear some very good melodies, but not on the level that Elton John created with Taupin lyrcs. The same is true of Taupn's band Farm Dogs. All of these other projects included Taupin's lyrics with various people composing the music. Whatever you think of Elton John, his artistry and melodic genius can not be denied. As his contemporaries, peers, worldwide audience, and fan base attest.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by Feste

While I can appreciate the praise and admiration for Mr. Taupin, the melody is just as important, if not crucial and essential, to the process and end result. Listen to Taupin's own solo albums, particularly Tribe, a real gem IMO. You will hear some very good melodies, but not on the level that Elton John created with Taupin lyrcs. The same is true of Taupn's band Farm Dogs. All of these other projects included Taupin's lyrics with various people composing the music. Whatever you think of Elton John, his artistry and melodic genius can not be denied. As his contemporaries, peers, worldwide audience, and fan base attest.

Something about that relationship, and the manner it's potrayed never made sense to the songwriter inside me. It's how can lyrics be written without any concept of the melody? And how could a melody be created that fit the lyrics at hand so perfectly? Doesn't seem possible there was no interchange between them. I think that might be more mythical than truthful....imho.

[Feste]

Originally Posted by kurth

Something about that relationship, and the manner it's potrayed never made sense to the songwriter inside me. It's how can lyrics be written without any concept of the melody? And how could a melody be created that fit the lyrics at hand so perfectly? Doesn't seem possible there was no interchange between them. I think that might be more mythical than truthful....imho.

I understand that perspective completely. You are spot on, it doesn’t seem possible. It is at the heart of the genius concept. A prime example being the authorship of what we know as the Shakespearian canon. You either accept/believe in the possibility of genius, which transcends our concept of what is and isn’t humanly possible or you don’t. If can’t accept it you must find a way to explain it in terms you can accept. I think it is possible that Taupin wrote in a way that was rhythmical, this making creation of melody much more natural. John Gorka wrote the melody to a poem he was sent and it became the song “Let Them In.” Perhaps, that is a one off example of how Taupin and John operated.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by Feste

I understand that perspective completely. You are spot on, it doesn’t seem possible. It is at the heart of the genius concept. A prime example being the authorship of what we know as the Shakespearian canon. You either accept/believe in the possibility of genius, which transcends our concept of what is and isn’t humanly possible or you don’t. If can’t accept it you must find a way to explain it in terms you can accept. I think it is possible that Taupin wrote in a way that was rhythmical, this making creation of melody much more natural. John Gorka wrote the melody to a poem he was sent and it became the song “Let Them In.” Perhaps, that is a one off example of how Taupin and John operated.

....as well it can be explained by simply disbelieving the myth they never communicated during the process....an invented tale for the masses....an easier explanation. Maybe Shakespeare never heard about occams razor?

And another final point I had after watching the initial video. John's is a pop musician. He's not a jazz pianist. When he ventures into that space he shows his musical weaknesses. Not even close to a McCoy Tyner. Despite my criticisms, I do enjoy early Elton. However his character ruined any musical prowess he once had. He preferred developing his costumes rather than developing his skills.

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by kurth

Something about that relationship, and the manner it's potrayed never made sense to the songwriter inside me. It's how can lyrics be written without any concept of the melody? And how could a melody be created that fit the lyrics at hand so perfectly? Doesn't seem possible there was no interchange between them. I think that might be more mythical than truthful....imho.

I've written poetry and lyrics for years, but more to your point I've set other poets work (usually dead and gone, so no collaboration possible without a Ouija board).* Many/most poets --even those who have no idea of working with a music composer -- write with rhythms and sense of the "word music." A versatile composer just tunes into that word music.

The meter (rhythm) is the most important thing. Folk music is full of lyrics that are sung to a variety of different tunes. Perhaps you've heard that a great many Emily Dickinson poems can be sung to tunes using ballad or hymn meter like "Amazing Grace" or "The Theme to Gilligan's Island" (go ahead, take "Because I could not stop for Death..." and sing along.)

Another example I've always loved was that the lyricist for Cream's wonderful "Tales of Brave Ulysses" composed that set of lyrics while listening to a recording of Leonard Cohen's song "Suzzanne." Eric Clapton got the lyrics and composed a completely different musical setting. As an easy acoustic guitar piece I'll still do "Tales of Brave Ulysses" to Cohen's tune. Works great, but of course the Cream recording worked just fine.


*That's in a nutshell what my Parlando Project is. Not all of them are sung, but some are -- and I even try to avoid the elaborate melodies of most "Art Song" settings because I can't sing them, but those are another example showing working with a text without collaboration is possible. I find that the Art Song approach can be kind of abstract when it sets non-metrical or otherwise irregular poetry.

[KevWind]

The musical "Rocket Man" alluded to some of that young genius before his 20's

[Feste]

Originally Posted by kurth

....as well it can be explained by simply disbelieving the myth they never communicated during the process....an invented tale for the masses....an easier explanation. Maybe Shakespeare never heard about occams razor?

In essence, Occam's Razor, also known as the principle of parsimony, is no different than choosing a way to explain something in terms that are easily accepted. With regard to Shakespeare, his/her identity is clouded, which of course leads to lots of variations as to the actual writing process and authorship, which makes it a bit more challenging than dealing with living artists.

Originally Posted by kurth

. And another final point I had after watching the initial video. John's is a pop musician. He's not a jazz pianist. When he ventures into that space he shows his musical weaknesses. Not even close to a McCoy Tyner. Despite my criticisms, I do enjoy early Elton. However his character ruined any musical prowess he once had. He preferred developing his costumes rather than developing his skills.

"Ay, there's the rub." Our perception, evaluation, etc. of the art itself will color our willingness or unwillingness to believe whatever information we come across about the artist. I know I enjoy music by artists that many would consider without merit or value. Does that make it any less enjoyable? In other words, is pop music weaker than jazz music? What about jazz vs classical? And if Elton John is not claiming or trying to be a jazz musician, what difference does it make? This is also at the heart of the age-old conflict between the music of different generations. My father hated any music related to rock-n-roll, and saw absolutely no value in it, labeling it noise. Was he right? To the extent that he heard only noise, yes. Does that mean his evaluation should be universal? I would say no. I have never heard the appeal in what is commonly known as RAP music, but I have heard some RAP songs where I get an inkling of what others value in that genre. In the end, the discussion of value in any art is very complicated. Even more so when those who create the art are added to the discussion. I used to think that the only way to know if any particular artist was truly great was through the test of time. The problem there is that none of us will be around in four hundred years to see how it turns out

Jeepers, look at the hhornet's nest you stirred up here Todd.

[kurth]

I believe the common definition of occams' is the simplest explanation is most likely the truth. Which, considering there's a paltry of documentation and only two witnesses who are personally involved, the truth of what they say is easily questioned. And while I understand FrankHudson's point, esp on earlier songs like Your Song, where Bernie obviously wrote the words with lyrics in mind, I think the complexity of the songs like Madman and how the lyrics are phrased make their intended use more difficult, and Bernie's and Elton's explanation questionable. For them to say they never collaborated on the melody is hard to believe. Ever ? Nevers are made of lies. And if you watch the initial video you see him attempting to break into a jazz interlude. Nothing to do with being colored by , nor willingness to believe, nor appreciation of various genres. It's about style, and talent and his attempt at such. In fact , he gets lost and looses his thread, which is ok because it is live, and he is attempting to go outside his comfort zone....but it ain't Keith Jarret in Koln. Like I said , I like early Elton, but later Elton fell victim to his own personal flaws. Of course the same can be said to be true of many pop stars, some even higher on the rung than he. It seems to be a pretty common predicament. So I'll stick to my original appraisal that Bernie deserves far more credit for Elton, than possibly even Elton himself, for the character of the early music. Madman is one of the best albums of that period without doubt. But it's like McCartney's Scrambled Eggs. No one would be singing that one, and we all know why. Yet put different lyrics and instant classic. That's why I rate lyrics more important. And I find it hard to believe them at their word that Elton just knew how to phrase random words given to him moments earlier, and Bernie's 'poems' were void of melodic ideas. I choose to believe the simplest explanation. And as for rap...sadly it's mostly trash. But I remember in the early days of my musicology education hearing a group like no other. Just floored me. I still have 2 albums. The Last Poets. There's something to be said for originality.