How low can you go? Action for Strats

[Taylor Ham]

Greetings

I am relatively new to playing blues rock on electric guitars. I currently set up my Strat with 11-49 XLs, .012" relief at the 8th fret between frets 1 and 17, action .065-.095 e-E. Fingerboard is 7.5" radius. This is currently as low as I can get it without hearing problematic buzzing while not plugged in. How low do you go?

Extra info: I think it may be because I still play as if I have an acoustic in my hands. I posted in this forum to see if any others transitioning from acoustic to electric had the same stumbling block. Maybe I should have more confidence in the amp and less in my right hand.

Recently got a Fender Vintera '60s Strat in Lake Placid Blue and I love it. Fine way to get into electrics. However, it has not been without problems. While trying to set it up, I noticed the fingerboard didnt feel level and came with lots of relief, looked like .04"+. plus it had the fender ski jump and V shaped relief instead of a smooth curve. Truss rod was not engaged at all from the factory.

I had some extra evo fretwire on hand, and a hankering for a project anyway. Did a refret with evo, levelled a solid .02 off the first position on the board. It wasn't planar at all unstressed, but now it is.

I am confident in my ability to work on guitars since I've been able to get my 12 string down to .045"-.07", and I hit that thing hard, but I'm ok with living with higher action if I have to.

[Bob Womack]

The action set-point on an electric isn't set for unplugged playing; it is set for plugged-in playing. Some buzz heard when unplugged isn't picked up by the pickups. Remember, you don't have to play nearly as hard on an electric as you do on an acoustic. Still and all, the action delimiter for me isn't how low I can get, it is how low does it need to be while still being high enough that when I do bends, the string bites into my hand enough to feel secure. Too low and it it doesn't feel secure.

I would suggest finding a really good luthier/tech and having him set up your guitar the first time. I avoided it for years, but the first time I did it it changed the world for me. More on my little website, HERE.

Bob

[rmp]

On an electric, to really dial in a low action with no choking or buzzing, one needs to ensure the frets are entirely leveled no high/low frets anywhere.

have you gone thru that? perhaps you have

Of course, in the sake of completeness...

Some of this is the process of checking if there are any loose frets that may have risen. a gentle tap on the frets with a small fret hammer, or thick straight edge and you can hear a loose fret compared to ones that are not.

There's a few kits to help this for small jobs, (eg: +/- half a dozen high frets) but if the fret leveling is all over the place, it's almost best to get it to a pro.

On my strats, and teles, I can set em down at around 3~4/64s low E, 3~2/64s high which is pretty comfortable for me. Same with my Gibsons.

at the end of the day, it's mostly feel, verses a ruled measure.. so what works for you is what works for you!

[FrankHudson]

Playing styles vary. String tensions/gauges vary. Tolerance for even an undetectable amount of buzz varies. So there's no one setting that is "a low as you can go."

The OP seems capable of re-fretting a guitar, so I assume they already know this, but stating this for the readers here in general.

I'm not much of a rhythm guitarist (not proud of that) and I've always wanted to bend strings on my electrics. Like Bob Womack there can be a too low that isn't ideal for me even without buzz, because I like to get "beside the string" to do larger bends. And on guitars (like Strats) where I want to use a whammy bar to bend down, you have a factor of lowered tension inducing buzz when that is done. As a result most of my electrics have moderately high action and it doesn't bother me, particularly because I use .009 sets on many of my electrics. You do have to do a bit more intonation compensation to account for the vertical bending the string takes before it hits the fret, but with lead playing this is hardly a factor.

I also tend to hit the strings pretty hard some of the time on electric. Maybe harder than I hit my acoustic guitars, which may be unusual, I don't know. As pointed out above, electric guitar doesn't really need that.

Folks who play chords, particularly chords up and down the neck (how I admire them) benefit more from lower action and fatter strings. When I do try to do my best with chords on electric I sometimes use one of my guitars with .011 or even .012 sets. The OP has already gone this route, may not be interested in string vibrato, and so can aim for the lowest possible action without buzz.

[nightchef]

My sweet spot is about 4/64 on the top E and 5/64 on the bottom E (or roughly .060 and .075). Any lower than that and I start to feel the tone closing up, even before there's noticeable buzz. That's with .010 strings.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

The action set-point on an electric isn't set for unplugged playing; it is set for plugged-in playing. Some buzz heard when unplugged isn't picked up by the pickups...

I would suggest finding a really good luthier/tech and having him set up your guitar the first time. I avoided it for years, but the first time I did it it changed the world for me...

A little trick from the '50s:

• Deck the bridge by adding the extra two springs Leo used to install from the factory, and tightening the screws holding the claw under the back cover plate (stabilizes the bridge and adds sustain, as well as allowing for lower action);
• Install a set of flatwounds heavier than what you're used to - 11's to start, 12's (original 1954 spec) if you can handle them, and a wound G in either case (they don't buzz as much as roundwounds, which allows you to drop the action lower, permits reasonable bends, and gets some "wood" as well as the characteristic Strat "acoustic reverb" into your tone);
• Have your tech make sure the frets/nut slots are level, neck angle is correct, and truss rod provides sufficient relief;

With proper set-up, there's no reason your Strat can't be the easiest-playing guitar in your collection: mine is set up exactly as above, and it never fails to come as a surprise to guys who are used to roundwound 9's and higher action just how smoothly it plays - or how much natural tone is available without the need to swap pickups...

[DavidE]

The real issue with action on your guitar will be the 7.25" radius. If you bend the strings, they will cut out if the action is low. One of the reasons I don't own any guitars with that radius. But yes, you need to adjust your playing style as well. 11's is a decently heavy set of strings. I've been playing electric for over 40 years and only use 11s if I'm dedicating the to downtuning a 1/2 step. Most electric players I know use 9s or 10s.

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

A little trick from the '50s:

• Deck the bridge by adding the extra two springs Leo used to install from the factory, and tightening the screws holding the claw under the back cover plate (stabilizes the bridge and adds sustain, as well as allowing for lower action);
• Install a set of flatwounds heavier than what you're used to - 11's to start, 12's (original 1954 spec) if you can handle them, and a wound G in either case (they don't buzz as much as roundwounds, which allows you to drop the action lower, permits reasonable bends, and gets some "wood" as well as the characteristic Strat "acoustic reverb" into your tone);
• Have your tech make sure the frets/nut slots are level, neck angle is correct, and truss rod provides sufficient relief;

With proper set-up, there's no reason your Strat can't be the easiest-playing guitar in your collection: mine is set up exactly as above, and it never fails to come as a surprise to guys who are used to roundwound 9's and higher action just how smoothly it plays - or how much natural tone is available without the need to swap pickups...

Particularly when one has multiple electric guitars, this idea which Steve reminds us of is something more people should try. In some ways it's another instrument when an electric is setup this way. For chordal work there's no reason it should be a bear to play, and chords will sound different with thicker strings, round G, and flats, often in a pleasing way. Single note "lead" is possible too, though the tone and response will differ. That timbral difference isn't necessarily bad--but as an old guy I'm often reminded of what would play on TV soundtracks in the 60s when they wanted to have background of a groovy youth party and the rock'n'roll would sound totally bogus to my young ears listening to the bohemian ballroom bands of my cohort. I now know that skilled session guys (some of them legit jazzers) were playing what I only considered to be lame. That flat wound, thick string sound was part of what they got "wrong." *

Well now my ear likes to hear that "wrong" sound some of the time.

I think what Bob W. is saying, and I know it's what I'm saying, is that there are other styles of playing that the setup Steve is talking about is far from ideal. I have a Strat (a reverse Stat at that) that's my guitar for playing Jimi Hendrix style (yes, but with somewhat less talent and innovation. ) Yes, I know SRV used fat strings, but I bet they weren't flat wound and with low action height as he did Hendrix style playing. With Steve DeRosa's setup on that Strat, my fingers would pop off the strings trying to do whole step or more finger vibrato, even assuming my finger strength was up to bending the group of strings to get those not sounded out of the way.

But this isn't really contra Steve. I'm just saying that an electric guitar setup this way is almost like another instrument, one that responds differently, and one that leads you to play electric differently. Know that, and those differences are the very reason to try that!


*Yes, I know that the "real rock'n'roll" (and R&B/Blues) guys that came before the 60s didn't always use thin strings and string bending. But then my first rock'n'roll hero may have been James Burton, who as it turns out was somewhat famous in the trade for being in the thin string vanguard.

[Taylor Ham]

Originally Posted by DavidE

The real issue with action on your guitar will be the 7.25" radius. If you bend the strings, they will cut out if the action is low. One of the reasons I don't own any guitars with that radius. But yes, you need to adjust your playing style as well.

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

A little trick from the '50s: [LIST][*]Deck the bridge by adding the extra two springs Leo used to install from the factory, and tightening the screws holding the claw under the back cover plate (stabilizes the bridge and adds sustain, as well as allowing for lower action); ...

I tuned down a half step and I decked the bridge, but i want to use the whammy as well. So for less resistance as i press further, I tightened the claw and use 3 springs. Believe it or not it stays decked for 2 whole step bends, not that I do those at all.

I agree the radius has a little to do with it, but lightening up on my right hand had the most effect.

My Taylor acoustic was set up for 12's at .06 - .08, but the strings were more taught so I think they could be set lower without buzzing. The 12 string I built has extremely low action for what it is, so it's just an adjustment going back to a long scale guitar with looser, fatter strings.

I think I can come down to around .057 - .088 and still be happy with it. It's fun to have a guitar that plays like a laptop keyboard once in awhile but I find myself not liking it much lower than that.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

Particularly when one has multiple electric guitars, this idea which Steve reminds us of is something more people should try. In some ways it's another instrument when an electric is setup this way. For chordal work there's no reason it should be a bear to play, and chords will sound different with thicker strings, wound G, and flats, often in a pleasing way. Single note "lead" is possible too, though the tone and response will differ. That timbral difference isn't necessarily bad...

...With Steve DeRosa's setup on that Strat, my fingers would pop off the strings trying to do whole step or more finger vibrato, even assuming my finger strength was up to bending the group of strings to get those not sounded out of the way...

But this isn't really contra Steve. I'm just saying that an electric guitar setup this way is almost like another instrument, one that responds differently, and one that leads you to play electric differently. Know that, and those differences are the very reason to try that!...

My point precisely, Frank - it's definitely an old-school sound but one which, if you think outside the box of the last two generations of Jimi-influenced Strat players, is as viable and useful as it ever was:

• A good number of the surf crowd still uses "Strats-&-flats" as their go-to setup, sixty years after surf's heyday;
• Need a jazz-tinged tone: an American-voiced amp, flatwound 12's, neck pickup, and roll off the tone to taste;
• Don't want to haul a dedicated acoustic-electric (and amp) to a gig: drop the middle pickup flush with the pickguard, use the neck/bridge positions for your "electric" tones, and crank out a quasi-acoustic rhythm with the middle pickup which, although not high-fidelity by today's standards, fills the same sonic space in a band arrangement (FYI this was an old NYC studio players' trick from back on the days of three-position pickup switches, that was used very successfully on some of the Four Seasons' million-sellers: "Dawn," "Ronnie," "Save It For Me," among others);
• Think you can't do bends or vibrato: with the ultra-low action made possible by the heavier flatwound strings half-step bends (whole steps on the lower strings) are routinely possible - more with some practice - and if you use a jazz/orchestral-string players' technique (lengthwise rather than across the fingerboard) not only single-string but three- and four-string chord vibrato is not only possible, but IME affords greater control of both speed and touch dynamics...

[Tom60]

Originally Posted by DavidE

The real issue with action on your guitar will be the 7.25" radius.

.. only on the top E string .. the lower strings will be just fine, they are not fighting uphill the curvature of the fretboard ... and will not choke when bending

Dont give up - the great feeling of 7.25 radius is worth it ..

btw Fender these days is faking it.. the Jimmy Page Tele and many others are not true 7.25.. due to popular demand I guess..