Martin Authentics vs. Boutique Counterparts

[tadol]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

I think - - - and the word is 'think' - - - that boutique builders have better things to do than try to copy a factory guitar's sound signature. They have their own unique acoustics to offer on their own merits. Dead easy to copy a Martin, go buy a Martin. And Ferrari doesn't copy Ford.

That’s pretty much exactly what Richard Hoover has to say - they aren’t trying to build a better Martin, they’re building better guitars. They do tend to be more balanced, more responsive, more nuanced in their responsiveness and musicality - and a lot of players really understand and appreciate that.

If what you want is a Martin, your best bet is to buy a Martin. If what you want is something more, something that many of us would say is “better” or at least “better suited”, you now have a lot of choices -

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by merlin666

Several of the posts here have used the term "vintage tone" and I feel challenged wrapping my head around this.

My suggestion is to not waste your time or effort on this.

It is an attempt at a descriptor for a subjective phenomena ("tone") that can't be adequately described using words.

As you correctly point out, there was - and continues to be on newly-made instruments - huge variation in the "tone" that they produced. I have played some "vintage" instruments that I thought were stellar and others that I thought were less than "average": the good ones sounded good, the not-so-good ones didn't sound so good. Many are attracted by the term "vintage", regardless of the tone or playing condition, under the heading "everything old is better than the new versions": "they just don't make 'em like that anymore".

The blue color of the 1930's was better than the blue color now.

[turfguy]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Kindnes

This is excellent advice, if you loved everything about that particular guitar, look no further.

Amen to this. It’s all about what moves YOU as the player. If you are moved by the instrument, you will make better music

[SingingSparrow]

Originally Posted by J Patrick

…care to explain what you mean by medicinal quality?…..it’s a new descriptor to me….are you saying they are sterile sounding in comparison to Martins?….if so I’d have to disagree with that being applied to ALL the guitars you mentioned…I’ve owned a fair number of some of these guitars myself….I’ve had 8 Santa Cruz guitars and they have all sounded quite different from one another…it would be difficult to find any one description that could be applied to ALL of them….other than fine…I could say the same thing about the Martins I have owned…

…and for the record we don’t all have the same sound in our heads….so there’s that..

I appreciate what you are saying but none of this stuff is arguable. If a person picks up a guitar and - for whatever reason - ego, bad day, overthinking, or even honesty - thinks it is sterile and you pick it up and think - for whatever reason - good day, feeling great, maybe you got laid an hour ago - that it is a superlative guitar --- this contrast is not odd. In fact it perfectly fits the humanity of us and is inarguable.

After a certain point, trying to quantify or qualify a guitar purchase is kinda pointless. Perhaps even ridiculous.

It is like that thread about trying to locate a 6000 dollar difference between sound clips of two guitars. And a comment therein establishing some sort of 1.x rule across price points. What makes a human consider - even, create - such fictitious logic? Perhaps, simply, momentum. We are all guilty of it and I would best serve myself in this moment by taking the high road as I, myself, am not exempt from any of it. It's what makes me (delightfully) human.

OP - if you can buy the guitar you like without needing to make yourself feel good about it by considering arguments that would convince (or not) that a pricey Martin isn't a foolish buy, given that one could pick up a custom at the same price - then buy it. If you can't get there, then perhaps it would be wise to not spend the money.

It isn't really about the guitar. It never is. It is about you. Consider yourself, not the guitar (per se.) But ymmv. I am a bit of a simpleton. Cheers.

[Lesbark Wagmore]

Originally Posted by SingingSparrow

It isn't really about the guitar. It never is. It is about you.

We considered changing this site name to the You Forum, but decided it just didn't have the same ring.

[SingingSparrow]

Originally Posted by Lesbark Wagmore

We considered changing this site name to the You Forum, but decided it just didn't have the same ring.

haha.

although, the whole world is a You Forum, my friend. as is whatever sits in it. Would detract from the mystery of life, and possibly the depth of art, if we began to recognize a thing for what it truly is.

I like your forum handle. I should heed that wisdom more often.

[hifivic]

I feel I should clarify what I was trying to say in my "medicinal" post. Sometimes that sound that's in your head is what your ears were accustomed to in the past therefore if most of the artists one listened to were say playing Martins or Gibsons then a boutique isn't going to get you there as it's not a sound that is familiar to your ears. In my case last month I bought a 00-17 Authentic 1931 and it was an "aha" revelation of "that sound" that I was reared on ie., CSNY, Simon & Garfunkel, Joni Mitchell that I unknowingly and subconsciously was wanting to hear with every boutique that went through my hands!

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

The blue color of the 1930's was better than the blue color now.

And the H20 was a lot wetter, too.

[J Patrick]

Originally Posted by hifivic

I feel I should clarify what I was trying to say in my "medicinal" post. Sometimes that sound that's in your head is what your ears were accustomed to in the past therefore if most of the artists one listened to were say playing Martins or Gibsons then a boutique isn't going to get you there as it's not a signature sound that one was reared on. In my case last month I bought a 00-17 Authentic 1931 and it was an "aha" revelation of "that sound" that I was reared on ie., CSNY, Simon & Garfunklel, Joni Mitchell that I unknowingly and subconsciously was wanting to hear with every boutique that went through my hands!

….I think I understand now that you are talking about familiarity ……the single attribute that no other builder has been able to replicate…..debatable…..but in the big picture it’s a fair observation….

….still don’t understand the term medicinal unless you are suggesting that other makers are building placebos….letting the players mind bridge the gap between not quite there and the real deal…not likely……

…..I think creative folks love to offer their own ideas on iconic designs…..they put them out there….and they either sell or they don’t….others forge the way ahead with little care for vintage design…and their guitars either sell or don’t….

…the truly great designs endure and become iconic vintage instruments that are replicated in huge numbers over quite a long time….I believe violin makers are still replicating Stradivarius’s designs…..

….personally I have been captivated by both vintage and modern build guitars although I tend to favor vintage designs……because I favor their aesthetics….and their tone…..probably because thats what is most familiar to me…..

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by J Patrick

….

…the truly great designs endure and become iconic vintage instruments that are replicated in huge numbers over quite a long time….I believe violin makers are still replicating Stradivarius’s designs…..

The truly great ones are replicating Giuseppe Guarneri’s designs! The true monsters of the Violin world are Guarneri violins, not Strads! Oh Snap! I’ve done went there and started a war!!LOL

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

My suggestion is to not waste your time or effort on this.

The blue color of the 1930's was better than the blue color now.

So you've seen "Parrish Blue..."

[Wade Hampton]

Leafs, let me ask you this: are you currently in a position to buy that guitar or a boutique brand instrument? Because they really are individuals, and generalizations are not particularly useful when it comes to finding THE guitar.

If you’re just seeking general information, I understand. But if you’re ready to make a purchase, buy this guitar that impressed you so much, rather than hope for a better guitar down the road.

Hope this helps.


whm

Originally Posted by leafs

Hi all,

I understand this topic has been discussed at length both here and at UMGF -- much of which has helped tremendously. However, there are additional personal elements to this question that begs me to ask it again to gain some fresh perspective. Hopefully it may help others who are stuck in a similar situation, too. Skip to the end of the message for a 'bottom line up front' question if you so wish to. Thanks in advance.

//

I stopped by my local shop today and lo and behold they had just received a Martin D-18 Authentic 1939 Aged. I have played a select few of Martin's 'Authentic' guitars in the past -- namely the OM-18 1933 -- and have always been impressed. Sadly, though, I was never in a position to buy another guitar when I had the chance to play them. That said, the (square shoulder) dreadnought body size has never really appealed to me either. I have always held a prejudice against them because, well, I thought they held a prejudice against me... Let me explain.

As someone who almost exclusively plays singer-songwriter/folk music without a pick, I naturally gravitated to smaller, shorter-scaled, and indeed more intimate guitars. This is what led me to purchase -- and fall in love with -- an old 0-18 and LG-2. I have never played fast bluegrass music and I likely never will. I also do not aggressively strum leads in a band setting with other instruments. Oh, and I only play sitting down. The point is, I had created a stereotype in my head of the average dreadnought player (musically, not personality-based...) and I simply just did not fit the bill. As such, I have never seriously explored the world of 14-fret, square shoulder dreadnought guitars.

This is precisely why I was so blown away after playing the D-18. First, it was incredibly light -- something I appreciate in a guitar given my preference for smaller guitars. Second, it was ergonomically comfortable for me, which I thought would not be the case. And third -- and most importantly -- it sounded good. Again, I hardly ever use a pick. But still, even with my light finger picking/strumming touch, the guitar projected. I was very, very impressed.

This all is to say that my ever time consuming intake of GAS now includes the traditional dreadnought size... especially guitars that are inspired by old sounding, vintage Martin guitars. And I would be lying if I said I was not excited to start this new 'search'. Now, the specific question:

//

The prices of Martin Authentic guitars, such as the D-18 1939, seem to fall in the upper-end range of boutique builders and individual luthiers who aim to re-create the same vintage Martin tone (e.g., Pre-War, SCGC, Collings 'Traditional' Preston Thompson, Brondel etc.). As someone new to the dreadnought size, what differences should I be on the look-out for between these companies who, when all is said and done, use similar building methods to achieve the same tonalities in a guitar?

Many thanks,
R

[Mr. Jelly]

Richard Hoover told a story about building the guitar for Tony Rice to replace his C. White Martin. The first guitar they built for him he said he wanted some changes. They went through this several times. In the end the guitar Tony liked the best was built just like the first one they built for him. Though Tony didn't know that at the time. To me this is what happens when a person focuses on guitar sound. You think you know what you want but given enough options you end up with something you hadn't figured on. It's seems to be more about getting rid of the things you don't want and living with what's left.

[Scotso]

Who better to replicate Martin sound? Martin or some other builder? Not that there aren't some great other builders

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

The first guitar they built for him he said he wanted some changes.

The absurdity of stories like this one, and the search for the guitar with the ideal sound, is as follows.

If I picked up Segovia's guitar, I won't sound like Segovia. If I picked up Tommy Emmanuel's guitar, I wouldn't sound like him either. If I picked up Paul McCartney's guitar, I wouldn't sound like him. If I picked up your guitar, I wouldn't sound like you.

Ditto for you.

Any guitar Segovia picked up sounded like Segovia. Same for any guitar picked up by Emmanuel, McCartney, me or you. What makes each player sound like that player is the player. The guitar, by itself, makes no sound.

You want a "better" sound, define what "better" means to you and improve your playing to achieve that. The endless pursuit of the perfect sounding guitar, while entertaining, is folly.