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  #16  
Old 07-25-2021, 12:21 AM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Originally Posted by pshih1979 View Post

I've given up on recording
and here's some advice don't please don't buy a zoom they are total garbage recorders.
I'm not quite sure how Doug gets such clean audible and dynamic sound with zoom
however I set up the same connection to a camera with zoom h6
and it was GARBAGE the recording sound was so low you can't hear
and when you try to bring up the levels with compression or raising volume
it sounds so BASS heavy it drowns out any dynamics
kudo's to Doug being able to record nicely but I'm pretty sure hes using the apogee ensemble to record music which is a $2000 + interface which I don't have luxury of buying

Hmm. For my videos, I'm using the Zoom H6 with external mics, and that's it. Not sure what you mean about "connection to the camera". I record to the zoom SD card, then sync with the camera in Final Cut (video editor). My studio setup does indeed use much higher end stuff, but I don't use it for videos.

I do use good mics, usually an AT5040ST these days for videos, but you can get a good sound with less expensive mics. I have a lot of demos out there using the AT2020s ($100), recently did one with the MLX Revelation Mini FET ($200 or so?, I forget). I have recorded things with the Zoom built-in mics as well, they're a bit thinner, but still quite usable.

I don't hear any extreme muddiness on your soundcloud tracks, so I'm not sure what the issue is. Your list of gear seems perfectly fine. A lot of time what we don't like in our recordings has more to do with what we're playing - like hearing your voice on tape, we think we sound different than we really do. At least for me, 90% of the game is how I play. I've done this over and over with trying to match other's recordings. I start out trying to figure out a mic placement that will make me sound like some recording I like - and in the end it comes down to me trying (and usually failing) to match the tone and feel of the other player, nothing to do with gear or recording. If I manage to play something well, the recording's fine. If I don't, no amount of gear or post-processing will fix it, and I hit "delete" :-)

If it's clarity you think you are missing, that can come from room acoustics, tho I don't hear obviously bad room acoustics in your recordings.

As far as good gear, for sure, it helps. Life's too short to use bad gear :-) Good guitars, focus on getting tone out of them, decent room acoustics, good mics, a good reverb, a few good plugins, and (most importantly) thousands of hours spent experimenting and learning how to record definitely doesn't hurt.

I'd suggest the cheapest and fastest way to get a good recording is actually to go to a studio - you'll learn how it's done by watching, and you get to leverage their room acoustics, great gear, mics, and knowledge. For the price of an H6 you could easily book a session or maybe even a couple in a moderate-priced studio. The experience can be quite educational.

Last edited by Doug Young; 07-25-2021 at 12:28 AM.
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  #17  
Old 07-25-2021, 01:06 AM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Originally Posted by pshih1979 View Post
My rant is based off of past 5 years of trying to record acoustic fingerstyle guitar

the gear I went through omg and $1000 worth of stuff
BTW, on the budget issue - I get that people have a certain budget, so it is what it is. Frankly $1000 for recording gear isn't a ton. It's not nothing, but it's easy to spend that much. A couple of mic stands and a couple of good mic cables will set you back $100 or more right there, so it adds up. Cameras, lights, recorders, mics, a computer, DAW, plugins, monitors, headphones, lots and lots of cables, and you're probably going to go way past $1000 pretty easily. And that's without worrying about room acoustics.

If you're serious about recording, the cheapest way in the long run is to buy good gear to start with, not stuff that you end up selling, buying more and selling, and... "Buy right" to start with, and it will be cheaper in the long run, assuming you want to stay with it.

The challenge is how do you know what to buy before you've gotten a lot of experience? That's where buying some studio time at a decent studio can help. It's also cheapest in the long run. You leverage someone else's big investment in time and gear, and it's like going to school.

If you find you haven't got a long term interest, then, well at least you got a recording with minimal investment. If you get the bug to do it yourself, what you learn from watching what the engineer uses and does will save you a ton in the long term as well.
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  #18  
Old 07-25-2021, 01:07 AM
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Mikes too close to guitar. A mono recording instead of stereo (some incorrect setting in mixer/DAW). Blankets that reduce the higher frequencies (less clarity and air results) but have little to no effect on lower frequencies.
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  #19  
Old 07-25-2021, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Mikes too close to guitar. A mono recording instead of stereo (some incorrect setting in mixer/DAW). Blankets that reduce the higher frequencies (less clarity and air results) but have little to no effect on lower frequencies.
Good catches, Rick. This isn't the OP (at least I don't think so), so this may not be blankets. But I didn't notice his tracks were mono. That may be it right there. Phase cancellation. And of course, mic placement's always 95% of the game.
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  #20  
Old 07-25-2021, 03:29 AM
shufflebeat shufflebeat is offline
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Originally Posted by pshih1979 View Post
Dude I have given up on any hope of recording a decent guitar sound with condenser mic
We feel your pain.

There is a straightforward explanation - you're doing it wrong.

Solution - do it right.

Stop spending money on kit and (maybe) invest in your recording space. There is a ton of good advice to be had, unfortunately the are several tons of uninformed opinion to filter out, that's sometimes the difficult part.

#1, think of some examples of how you think it's been done right.

#2, having ID'd your goal, talk to someone who gets good results.
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  #21  
Old 07-25-2021, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by pshih1979 View Post
Dude I have given up on any hope of recording a decent guitar sound with condenser mic

I have a AUDIENT ID14 which is boasted as being on the best audio interfaces
a CAD M179 which is boasted to be awesome on acoustic guitar
and a GUILD D240E dreadnought guitar with medium guage strings
IMO the GUILD D240E is the best sounding guitar ever I have played
very easy to fingerpick and has huge sound and very dynamic
very nice highs and lows
and mids

I record with REAPER
and HERES two problems I RUN INTO
THE INPUT SIGNAL PATH GOING TO THE DAW is
-30db I have the preamp gain set to 60% which is very good amount
so why is the signal going to daw so SO SO LOW

not only that but I have to use tons of compression and gain match just to bring levels to where its audible

then there's the MUD i mean really muddy sounding it doesn't matter where i record I tried everything sound panels blankets everything

JUST SUPER MUDDY

https://soundcloud.com/user-273389721

I've given up on recording
and here's some advice don't please don't buy a zoom they are total garbage recorders.
I'm not quite sure how Doug gets such clean audible and dynamic sound with zoom
however I set up the same connection to a camera with zoom h6
and it was GARBAGE the recording sound was so low you can't hear
and when you try to bring up the levels with compression or raising volume
it sounds so BASS heavy it drowns out any dynamics
kudo's to Doug being able to record nicely but I'm pretty sure hes using the apogee ensemble to record music which is a $2000 + interface which I don't have luxury of buying

lets just face it guys there's no such thing as being able to record guitar with a budget interface budget mic cuz it will just come out as CRAP
and no amount of EQ , fabfilter EQ reverb plugin, or DAW can save or help you improve sound.
you have to have $1000 + mic $20k worth of audio gear
which I am def not going to do
Here's one of my recordings with my Zoom H5, Rodes NT5 and AKG Perception 150 mics. The mics are about 10-12" from the guitar, spaced pair, pointed towards the floor, not the guitar. I record in a small spare bedroom used as storage now, no room treatments. I edit in Rx Standard then "master" in Reaper:



It's not professional level, but for what I do its ok.
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  #22  
Old 07-25-2021, 08:24 AM
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KevWind KevWind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pshih1979 View Post
Dude I have given up on any hope of recording a decent guitar sound with condenser mic

I have a AUDIENT ID14 which is boasted as being on the best audio interfaces
a CAD M179 which is boasted to be awesome on acoustic guitar
and a GUILD D240E dreadnought guitar with medium guage strings
IMO the GUILD D240E is the best sounding guitar ever I have played
very easy to fingerpick and has huge sound and very dynamic
very nice highs and lows
and mids

I record with REAPER
and HERES two problems I RUN INTO
THE INPUT SIGNAL PATH GOING TO THE DAW is
-30db I have the preamp gain set to 60% which is very good amount
so why is the signal going to daw so SO SO LOW

not only that but I have to use tons of compression and gain match just to bring levels to where its audible

then there's the MUD i mean really muddy sounding it doesn't matter where i record I tried everything sound panels blankets everything

JUST SUPER MUDDY

https://soundcloud.com/user-273389721

I've given up on recording
and here's some advice don't please don't buy a zoom they are total garbage recorders.
I'm not quite sure how Doug gets such clean audible and dynamic sound with zoom
however I set up the same connection to a camera with zoom h6
and it was GARBAGE the recording sound was so low you can't hear
and when you try to bring up the levels with compression or raising volume
it sounds so BASS heavy it drowns out any dynamics
kudo's to Doug being able to record nicely but I'm pretty sure hes using the apogee ensemble to record music which is a $2000 + interface which I don't have luxury of buying

lets just face it guys there's no such thing as being able to record guitar with a budget interface budget mic cuz it will just come out as CRAP
and no amount of EQ , fabfilter EQ reverb plugin, or DAW can save or help you improve sound.
you have to have $1000 + mic $20k worth of audio gear
which I am def not going to do
Quote:
Originally Posted by pshih1979 View Post
My rant is based off of past 5 years of trying to record acoustic fingerstyle guitar

the gear I went through omg and $1000 worth of stuff


clarett 2 pre thunderbolt
apogee duet 2 USB
Apollo twin DUO apollo twin SOLO
APOGEE ELEMENT 24
Audient id 44
focusrite 18i8 3rd gen

mics:
beyerdynamic mc930 pair $700
OKTAVA MK 012 pair $500
RODE NT 5 pair $400
RODE NT2A $300
SE 8 mics pair $500

guitars:

FURCH G23CR
LOWDEN F32C
MARTIN GPCPA4R
Quote:
as you can see I have actually tested all possibilities and permutations outand have concluded that what you hear from youtubers like
Doug and homebrewedmusic is the result of using very high end gear
but also knowing exactly what to do with the gear.
I have a quiet room and it just sounds bad
At the risk of being blunt , you have reached the wrong overall blanket conclusion.


While I and probably everybody that has tried can understand how frustrating home recording can be...... AND it can certainly be true that it may not actually be the best path for everyone to take... And it may well be you might want to forgo home recording and simply go to a pro studio when you really want to archive you music.

But in general given your list of gear. The gear is not the actual problem and more expensive gear will not solve the actual problem.

Just some general thoughts::
Having blankets ( probably not a great idea ) or even actual acoustic panels will not give great results---- unless--- you know where to place them in your recording space.

Bass heavy is the result of one or more of several things
#1 room reflection buildup
#2 proximity boom
# 3 failing to use optimal Hight pass EQ filtering

Using EQ --- unless--- you are using it correctly---- Especially boosting EQ can make things harsher and less clear

Using lots of compression is almost always a bad idea for acoustic recording

That audient should be able to easily drive a condenser (or dynamic) to 0 db or above .

-30 with that audient means something is wrong in either your signal chain , DAW routing, or gain staging.

Dreds are in general one of the hardest guitars to record intimately A guitar sounding great when you play it , does not necessarily translate to recording Forget the guild and try recoding any of the other guitars UNTIL you get satisfactory results with it first
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Last edited by KevWind; 07-25-2021 at 08:36 AM.
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  #23  
Old 07-25-2021, 09:14 AM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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First thought in response to the OP's frustration.

It's highly unlikely that it's your gear.* It's highly likely as someone put it bluntly upthread that you're "doing it wrong." If you're a musician who needs/desires a good quality recording, one path is have someone else do it. You'll be able to concentrate on performance too. However, if you need/desire is to Do It Yourself I do NOT recommend going to a studio. You will likely get good results, but I fear you'll be back at the "it's must the the expensive gear that makes the difference" theory. Drop that fixation/theory with the gear is my advice.

Among the advice/theories offered above, the "you don't like or know your own (guitar) voice" one is plausible. What any mic hears and what your player's ear hears is different.

Room is possibly a factor. I have made recordings that please me in untreated rooms, but I have heard recordings made in untreated rooms that sound terrible to my taste too.

From your description, it's highly likely that in your frustration you are overcomplicating or doing something fundamentally wrong. I don't have exactly your current setup, but if I was presented the task of recording an acoustic guitar with a condenser mic and one of the popular and competent lower-cost interfaces (brands/models differ, but that's what I in fact do) I'd plug in the mic direct into the interface. Increase the gain on whatever knob or fader the interface has so that I get signal. With modern digital gear getting max volume at this point isn't critical, though never ever hitting "red" (above 0db) is important. I usually record at 24 bit depth and a modest 44 mhz, this isn't "the best" but I sometimes have larger, higher track projects and modest computers to work with them on. 24 bit means that low levels while recording are not a big issue. In my DAW the resulting track level is often lower than what I would see when I used to transfer audio from my old tape portastudio, so my digital interface tracks have peaks between -6 and -12 db. Sometimes I misjudge and get even lower levels. In my cassette days that would mean hiss overwhelming my audio, but the noise floor on even modest digital gear is so much better. The only condensor mic that I've ever used that I felt challenged with it's output the input gain range of an popular inexpensive digital interface was a Shure SM81, and even there I could get signal on my Focusrite I could use, just lowish.

When tracking compression isn't a requirement and can be a problem. Just make sure you don't risk any digital "overs" above 0 db via what level you set on the input level knob on your interface.

I'd put the one mic around 10-16 inches away aimed at the 12-14th fret area and hit record. A more careful step would be to use reasonably accurate and enclosed cup headphones to check mic placement before hitting record. Some mics have a "low cut"/"high pass" filter switch that cuts below 100 hz. I often flip that on, and with most voices and guitars that sound better (that low EQ area is almost entirely mud, rumble, and environmental noise).

I tend to record in the middle of the room. Stereo recordings of solo acoustic instruments can sound wonderful, but mono can sound great too.

Hope any of this helps. Ideally OP, getting someone with experience to come over and work with your gear in your room might find out what you're doing wrong.



*It's a very low percentage possibility that you have some "hardware problem" -- not in the sense that you didn't spend enough, but as in broken or manufacturer's defect, but I think you posted that you've gone through several pieces of gear thinking gear was the issue, making a duff piece of gear highly unlikely, and making not understanding how to use it even more likely.
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  #24  
Old 07-26-2021, 01:24 PM
EZYPIKINS EZYPIKINS is offline
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My .02

You should have at least one hard surface. Preferably behind you.

Behind you and a hard floor even better. I have a budget so I didn't want to buy a bunch of mics, that may, or may not work.

In a pinch you can't go wrong with tried and true.

I like a Shure SM81 on acoustic. A pair even better.

Still making them @ 350.ish new
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  #25  
Old 07-26-2021, 02:22 PM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pshih1979 View Post
Dude I have given up on any hope of recording a decent guitar sound with condenser mic

I have a AUDIENT ID14 which is boasted as being on the best audio interfaces
a CAD M179 which is boasted to be awesome on acoustic guitar
and a GUILD D240E dreadnought guitar with medium guage strings
IMO the GUILD D240E is the best sounding guitar ever I have played
very easy to fingerpick and has huge sound and very dynamic
very nice highs and lows
and mids

I record with REAPER
and HERES two problems I RUN INTO
THE INPUT SIGNAL PATH GOING TO THE DAW is
-30db I have the preamp gain set to 60% which is very good amount
so why is the signal going to daw so SO SO LOW

not only that but I have to use tons of compression and gain match just to bring levels to where its audible

then there's the MUD i mean really muddy sounding it doesn't matter where i record I tried everything sound panels blankets everything

JUST SUPER MUDDY

https://soundcloud.com/user-273389721

I've given up on recording
and here's some advice don't please don't buy a zoom they are total garbage recorders.
I'm not quite sure how Doug gets such clean audible and dynamic sound with zoom
however I set up the same connection to a camera with zoom h6
and it was GARBAGE the recording sound was so low you can't hear
and when you try to bring up the levels with compression or raising volume
it sounds so BASS heavy it drowns out any dynamics
kudo's to Doug being able to record nicely but I'm pretty sure hes using the apogee ensemble to record music which is a $2000 + interface which I don't have luxury of buying

lets just face it guys there's no such thing as being able to record guitar with a budget interface budget mic cuz it will just come out as CRAP
and no amount of EQ , fabfilter EQ reverb plugin, or DAW can save or help you improve sound.
you have to have $1000 + mic $20k worth of audio gear
which I am def not going to do

Something's wrong with your set up if you are getting only -30dB signal. Don't get defensive, but are you sure the mic is pointed the right way? Its a common error.
Second, I don't hear ANY muddiness in the 2 recordings I checked on your soundcloud. There is a harshness - with fingersqueaks/finger sounds really noticeable (EQ mistake?) If YOU hear muddiness in them, then your monitoring/listening gear or signal chain would seem to be at fault.
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