The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Carbon Fiber

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #61  
Old 08-08-2018, 11:44 AM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Arizona (from island boy to desert dweller)
Posts: 6,970
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pax238 View Post
I thought that I would post a quick update about how this all turned out.

I worked with Dave at Rainsong and Cassie at Musicians Friend to exchange the guitar (both were completely committed to customer satisfaction, and two of the nicest people that I've dealt with in any companies), and my new CH-OM was delivered today. The fit and finish on this one are what I would expect from a top caliber CF guitar. Yes, some the underlying weave is visible under some light angles, but even then it is uniform and much more than acceptable, and the seams around the outside and the sound hole are smooth and pretty much invisible.

All's well. My thanks to my fellow AGFers who supported me and offered encouragement through this.

NGD to come after I get some Retro Monels on it and have a chance to play it a while.
Glad to hear this all had a good outcome!
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 08-08-2018, 12:00 PM
steelvibe steelvibe is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: my father's attic
Posts: 5,783
Thumbs up

Excellent in both your ultimate result and on a fine instrument! You have the right idea for strings too.
__________________
Don't chase tone. Make tone.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 08-08-2018, 01:08 PM
VJP5's Avatar
VJP5 VJP5 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Tampa Area
Posts: 1,422
Default

Glad it worked out for you.

+1 on the Monels.

It's interesting (to me) that on my mahogany guitar, the Monels sounded great right from the get go. I did not need a 'break in' period to enjoy them. However, on my CF they needed about a week. I'm glad I waited them out because they sound fantastic on my H-OM.
__________________
Strummin' to a different chord
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 08-08-2018, 02:17 PM
Long Road Home Long Road Home is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: An island in the Salish Sea
Posts: 778
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
Glad to hear this all had a good outcome!
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelvibe View Post
Excellent in both your ultimate result and on a fine instrument! You have the right idea for strings too.
Thanks! My faith has been restored.
__________________
Barry
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 08-08-2018, 02:20 PM
Long Road Home Long Road Home is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: An island in the Salish Sea
Posts: 778
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by VJP5 View Post
Glad it worked out for you.

+1 on the Monels.

It's interesting (to me) that on my mahogany guitar, the Monels sounded great right from the get go. I did not need a 'break in' period to enjoy them. However, on my CF they needed about a week. I'm glad I waited them out because they sound fantastic on my H-OM.
Thanks. Like you, the Retros sound great on my Eastman E6OM (mahogany). I was just about to put them on the Rainsong when I read your post. I guess I'll wait until after the open mic tonight.
__________________
Barry
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 12-08-2018, 11:03 AM
gerardo1000 gerardo1000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,448
Default

Noodlefingers, I've got a super new Rainsong CH-OM, very latest model, from Ted, with the shark at the 12th fret, and under the right light angle the top looks identical to the photo that you posted, i.e. pitted. Under a different light, it just looks a glossy black. I have also seen some older tops in the past at Huber Breese, a dealer that is close to my house, and they looked different, they had a distinctive vertical wave, no pitting. I guess that Rainsong may have changed something in their way to build the top. Actually, I am not bothered at all by the "pitting", the guitar sounds superb. What bothers me a bit, instead, is the fact that when it is under strings tension, the top creates a couple of ripples/bumps on the two sides of the soundhle, i.e. the surface around the sound hole is not flat but a little bumpy. With no strings tension, the top becomes perfectly flat again. I wonder if the author of this post has the same issue ?
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 12-08-2018, 02:09 PM
NoodleFingers NoodleFingers is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 545
Default

Hi Gerardo,

I don't know what causes that variation. It may well be that RainSong has been changing their weave for some reason, or they may have made a change in their layering, or it just might be some variation in how flat the fabric sits during molding. There's basically none on mine, but it's a few years old.

jonfields45 would be the one to ask... he knows far more about the carbon fiber manufacturing process than I do. He's also the resident expert (I believe) on that slight top deformation caused by string tension. There seems to be some variation on that--some people find it far more noticeable than others. It's an artifact of the lack of bracing on the top. The good news is that it won't get any bigger, and it poses no danger whatsoever to the guitar. I have to strain to see it on mine.

As long as you're happy with the guitar, then there's nothing to worry about.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 12-08-2018, 03:15 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 4,598
Default

I think I replied earlier in this thread that if you look carefully at a RainSong unidirectional top you will see the familiar 3x3 twill pattern of the layer just beneath the visible layer. The Concert tops must have (at least some) lateral fiber in the outer CF layer(s) for structural integrity. The visible uni layer must also have something to hold it together before it is cured or it would be completely unworkable. What you are seeing is some variation in how the cross fibers impact the final cure of the main unidirectional fibers. We all should keep in mind that these cloths are not primarily made for cosmetic applications and in general if cosmetics are your primary concern, then only a 1x1 twill is a good choice (CA top for example). 1x1 twill is the weakest CF option as the CF fibers have the shortest straight run length in the plane of the surface, BUT it holds its pattern the best during handling and around curves (the neck of a RainSong).

So for my eye the uni RainSong guitars I've owned have benefited from the variation caused by the uni top cross fiber. To me it looks more organic. But in another thread my eye for beauty has not been holding up well :~).
__________________
jf45ir Free DIY Acoustic Guitar IR Generator
.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 50/50 & 0/100 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
My duo's website and my email... [email protected]

Jon Fields
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 12-08-2018, 06:37 PM
gerardo1000 gerardo1000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,448
Default

What I do not understand is why there is a degree of variation among different Rainsong guitars with the same uni-directional top, as far as ripple/bumps appearing around the soundhole under tension?
Isn't the carbon fiber material supposed to be super rigid, and for sure more rigid than wood ? And, if we accept the idea that the uni-directional tops of Rainsong are SO thin that they CAN get a shape modification under strings tension, my question is : why this modification is not always the same ? Why some tops do not show any modification at all, and other tops shows ripple/bumps ? It does not make a lot of sense to me.... just to give you an example: my CH-OM has two ripples on the two sides of the sound hole under strings tension. The three CH guitars that I inspected a few days ago at Huber and Breeze, a Rainsong dealer ( a CH-PA, a CH-WS and a CH-OM) did not... how do you explain this if the strings gauge is the same and if the top design (uni-directional) is the same, and if the thickness of the tops is the same ? Maybe Rainsong should find a way to reach better consistency ? Otherwise to get a Rainsong with a flat top or one with ripples is a matter of luck ?

Last edited by gerardo1000; 12-08-2018 at 06:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 12-08-2018, 07:00 PM
Captain Jim Captain Jim is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Arizona (from island boy to desert dweller)
Posts: 6,970
Default

The Shorty that I had was an SG-FLE (the "forum" model), and as such had the abalone trim around the soundhole. I don't recall seeing any deflection in the top (guitar sold earlier this year so I can't check it now) - maybe because of the different rosette/soundhole treatment?
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 12-08-2018, 11:35 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 4,598
Default

The Ablam sound hole rosette will stiffen the sound hole a bit. All materials and designs are subject to a normal/Gaussian/standard/bell distribution. The goal of a musical instrument manufacturer would be to have good yield without making the product so stiff/strong that it was no longer a good musical instrument. CF, wood, or whatever material you choose to use will have some variation. If you are designing for sound, then some lack of planarity (at least for a flat top guitar) will be an issue. If you are designing for planarity, then some lack of sound will be your problem. Regardless of your goal, you will get some that sound better or worse, and some will be more or less planar.

Now that I've got two uni top RainSong Parlors I can say that the one with the Ablam sound hole decoration is more planar.
__________________
jf45ir Free DIY Acoustic Guitar IR Generator
.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 50/50 & 0/100 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
My duo's website and my email... [email protected]

Jon Fields

Last edited by jonfields45; 12-08-2018 at 11:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 12-09-2018, 08:51 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 4,598
Default

So here is my funny story of my prejudices judging a product with the wrong eyes instead of the right ears. When RainSong first introduced the uni Concert tops I thought: wow what a bad idea that is going to fall apart. Then I noticed in just the right reflected light the 3x3 twill (directly?) underneath the uni and thought -- OK now I'll give it a pass for the eye test and see how they sound...

Kind of silly even thinking they would sell a product that could not stand up. It would be the end of them. And they've been around a long time!

Though the picture of the particular guitar that started this thread would not be acceptable to me either, kind of like most Adi top wood guitars.
__________________
jf45ir Free DIY Acoustic Guitar IR Generator
.wav file, 30 seconds, pickup left, mic right, open position strumming best...send to direct email below
I'll send you 100/0, 75/25, 50/50 & 0/100 IR/Bypass IRs
IR Demo, read the description too: https://youtu.be/SELEE4yugjE
My duo's website and my email... [email protected]

Jon Fields
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 12-09-2018, 05:45 PM
albirw albirw is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Australia
Posts: 56
Default

Great to hear the good news.
Do you have pictures of your newer CH-PA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pax238 View Post
I thought that I would post a quick update about how this all turned out.

I worked with Dave at Rainsong and Cassie at Musicians Friend to exchange the guitar (both were completely committed to customer satisfaction, and two of the nicest people that I've dealt with in any companies), and my new CH-OM was delivered today. The fit and finish on this one are what I would expect from a top caliber CF guitar. Yes, some the underlying weave is visible under some light angles, but even then it is uniform and much more than acceptable, and the seams around the outside and the sound hole are smooth and pretty much invisible.

All's well. My thanks to my fellow AGFers who supported me and offered encouragement through this.

NGD to come after I get some Retro Monels on it and have a chance to play it a while.
__________________
Albi

Past:
2015 --- Maton S60
2016 --- Mini Maton EM6
ft. AP5 Original
2017 --- Cole Clark CCAN2EC-SR
ft. 3-way pickup
2017 --- Cole Clark CCLL1RM


Current:
2017 --- Anuenue M200
2018 --- Emerald X20 Opus
ft. satin neck + LR Baggs Element
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:15 PM
Long Road Home Long Road Home is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: An island in the Salish Sea
Posts: 778
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by albirw View Post
Great to hear the good news.
Do you have pictures of your newer CH-PA?
Here's a link to my NGD post: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=519385

No real closeup photos on this one - just a full front and back (which I needed for my insurance company). Even though it still shows the weave at certain angles under fairly bright (stage) lights, the top of this one is much more regular.

Someone came up to me after our last performance and told me how cool she thought the guitar looks (her words were "it sparkles"... sigh...).
__________________
Barry
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Carbon Fiber

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=