K&K fans-another possibility

[maxtheaxe]

I have K&Ks in four of my acoustics...love them, and I use them with a K&K Pure XLR Mach2 preamp...perfect setup in my book. The one pickup-equipped guitar that didn't have them is a Larrivee DV-10K made in 2000 that still had the old original Fishman Matrix active UST in it. I never cared for the gritchy. trebly sound; finally got around to switching it out.

I was pretty certain that I wanted a SBT type pickup and decided to try the JJB Prestige 220; this setup has a pair of 20mm pads (as opposed to the three 15mm pads on the PWM or the 22mm pads on the PW/PW-12-string) and based on my experience removing the center pad on K&K setups when I had overly midrangy or boomy levels, I gambled that this would be the best option.

I was right...the larger pads and wider proximity between them was just the thing for this particular guitar. The Koa back & sides give this guitar a a bit of natural midrange bump and I figured it didn't need any more help in that department.

Comparison between the K&K and JJB? As to the tone, so little difference between them as to matter not at all. The JJBs were a bit rougher quality in terms of manufacturing standards; they showed some scratches, handling wear...understandable since they're totally hand made...but nothing that would affect their utility as pickups. The JJB package also lacks the installation items that K&K includes...the putty, golf tees, plastic mounting template, instructions etc. I used the mounting template and left-over putty from an earlier K&K installation to mount these and it worked nicely.

I also installed a new bone saddle from Bob Colosi; as usual, a bit of careful sanding on the base to get the action right, and carefully radiused ends was all it needed. The original saddle that came out of this guitar was strange; apart from being set to accomodate the UST, the base of it was crenelated like the top of a castle wall...(???) No wonder the guitar didn't sound as full as it should.

This guitar is much MUCH better now, both acoustically and through my system. I'm going to go ahead and make a Tusq saddle for comparison and will decide which I like better. Apart from that, this guitar sounds better now than it ever has.

The upshot of all this is to say that, IMHO the JJB pickups are a viable, less expensive alternative to K&Ks, with the caveats that they do not include mounting instructions or materials and their finished quality (due to being completely hand made) is or can be somewhat rough/indifferent compared to the K&Ks.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it...

[vindibona1]

Questions... Why did you elect to go with the 20mm pads? Why not the 15mm that they recommend for most guitars? I'm a little confused as to what you did with the K&K center pad that you mentioned. Did you leave the center one off or install all three (with K&K and JJB)?

[maxtheaxe]

A couple guitars that I installed K&Ks on were way too hot in the mids through my system and somewhat boomy in the lows. On both those guitars I simply removed the center pad of the 3 pads...leaving only the one on the bass side & on the treble. This smoothed it right out.

One of those guitars was my LL16-12 that I used the "KK Pure 12-string" which has 22mm pads...it's basically identical to the old, original "K&K Pure". That one was over the top boomy, midrangy, just unusable, but when I took away that center pad, sounds GREAT now.

When I checked into the JJB system I decided to take a gamble that my Spruce-over-Koa dread might have the same trouble, so just went with the two larger sensors instead of 3 small sensors. The 15mm pads probably would have worked OK too...I just decided to try it this way and it worked out great.

A couple of my other guitars that have all 3 K&K pads sound great, and one of those is the old-style K&K Pure with 22mm pads, from before they came out with the PWM.

I can't account for the difference, except to say that it appears to me that on certain guitars, perhaps those that already have prominent mids or just louder overall level, there might be a phase/proximity effect with those pads being too close together, that could be causing accentuation of the mids, in a BAD way, and attenuation of other frequencies...bad phase coloration, in other words. One gets the same thing in multi-miking situations, especially with drums, if adjacent mikes are too close together (in terms of level) and their polar patterns overlap too much...just a muddy mess.

[Marty C]

Originally Posted by maxtheaxe

A couple guitars that I installed K&Ks on were way too hot in the mids through my system and somewhat boomy in the lows. On both those guitars I simply removed the center pad of the 3 pads...leaving only the one on the bass side & on the treble. This smoothed it right out.

One of those guitars was my LL16-12 that I used the "KK Pure 12-string" which has 22mm pads...it's basically identical to the old, original "K&K Pure". That one was over the top boomy, midrangy, just unusable, but when I took away that center pad, sounds GREAT now.

When I checked into the JJB system I decided to take a gamble that my Spruce-over-Koa dread might have the same trouble, so just went with the two larger sensors instead of 3 small sensors. The 15mm pads probably would have worked OK too...I just decided to try it this way and it worked out great.

A couple of my other guitars that have all 3 K&K pads sound great, and one of those is the old-style K&K Pure with 22mm pads, from before they came out with the PWM.

I can't account for the difference, except to say that it appears to me that on certain guitars, perhaps those that already have prominent mids or just louder overall level, there might be a phase/proximity effect with those pads being too close together, that could be causing accentuation of the mids, in a BAD way, and attenuation of other frequencies...bad phase coloration, in other words. One gets the same thing in multi-miking situations, especially with drums, if adjacent mikes are too close together (in terms of level) and their polar patterns overlap too much...just a muddy mess.

I wish I had seen your post about 2 years earlier. I had a Martin Dread which had the original K & K installed - two large green disks on the outside and small black in the center. I spent tons of money buying different boxes in an attempt to remove that heavy, heavy mid range - but never could. If I got the mid range decent, the lows disappeared. I finally ripped it out and have since tried numerous others. I never thought of removing the center!

I wanted to put the updated K & K in but the original installer put so much glue I could not sand it all out. I think that bridge plate is ruined from putting anything else in. I paid extra when I ordered it to have my top done sunburst and am Leary of getting Chemicals anywhere near the top.

Your idea would have saved me tons of money and frustration.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by maxtheaxe

…The upshot of all this is to say that, IMHO the JJB pickups are a viable, less expensive alternative to K&Ks, with the caveats that they do not include mounting instructions or materials and their finished quality (due to being completely hand made) is or can be somewhat rough/indifferent compared to the K&Ks.

Hi mta

A couple other caveats are:
A - the sensor size of the JJB is 15mm as opposed to the 12.5mm of the K&K Pure mini. That makes it bassier and muddier on the low end.
B - the output signal of JJB are about 20% less than K&K output which means they have to be turned up louder/pushed harder…increasing the self-noise.
C - When pushed harder, the JJB become more strident in the trebles.

The 15mm sensor is a good choice for 12 string guitars. They tend to need more bass. The original K&K Pure Western (original pickup) had 15mm sensors and they are super bassy. They are not the best sensor for 6 string models.

Also smaller guitars (OM for instance) often have a bridge plate which is too small to space 15mm sensors correctly. This is a reason that cutting off a center sensor might 'fix' things. As for universally fixing the tone of a guitar, given that acoustics are not all alike, just snipping one sensor is not likely going to fix all guitars.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi mta

A couple other caveats are:
A - the sensor size of the JJB is 15mm as opposed to the 12.5mm of the K&K Pure mini. That makes it bassier and muddier on the low end.
B - the output signal of JJB are about 20% less than K&K output which means they have to be turned up louder/pushed harder…increasing the self-noise.
C - When pushed harder, the JJB become more strident in the trebles.

The 15mm sensor is a good choice for 12 string guitars. They tend to need more bass. The original K&K Pure Western (original pickup) had 15mm sensors and they are super bassy. They are not the best sensor for 6 string models.

Also smaller guitars (OM for instance) often have a bridge plate which is too small to space 15mm sensors correctly. This is a reason that cutting off a center sensor might 'fix' things. As for universally fixing the tone of a guitar, given that acoustics are not all alike, just snipping one sensor is not likely going to fix all guitars.

That is really helpful Larry. You've mentioned some aspects of the JJB that I don't think anyone has brought up before. Particularly concerning would be the "self noise" and stridency from having to push the gain for output. I wouldn't have thought of noise in these types of pickups.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

That is really helpful Larry. You've mentioned some aspects of the JJB that I don't think anyone has brought up before. Particularly concerning would be the "self noise" and stridency from having to push the gain for output. I wouldn't have thought of noise in these types of pickups.

Remember all of this is opinion and none has been subjected to repeatable lab tests or a double blind user test. One man's low output mud is another's perfection...

Guitar to guitar variations make any final word on any reasonable pickup plainly unreasonable.

The noise comments are particularly hard for me to accept as an EE. At the very least to make any such claims you would need to do some decent lab testing and you would pronounce your result in dB not percent. A correlation between SNR and max output is not something I would arbitrarily state for anything. And finally -20% is -1 dB, truly nothing to get excited about.

I've installed dozens of SBTs; K&Ks, JJB 330s, JJB 220s, HFNs, Macintyre Feathers, Baggs IBeams, etc. I think they're all better sounding than a UST and close enough you could choose any of them as your favorite.

ToneDexter also levels the playing field further.

[maxtheaxe]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Remember all of this is opinion and none has been subjected to repeatable lab tests or a double blind user test. One man's low output mud is another's perfection...

Guitar to guitar variations make any final word on any reasonable pickup plainly unreasonable.

The noise comments are particularly hard for me to accept as an EE. At the very least to make any such claims, you would need to do some decent lab testing and you would pronounce your result in dB not percent. A correlation between SNR and max output is not something I would arbitrarily state for anything. And finally -20% is -1 dB, truly nothing to get excited about.

I've installed dozens of SBTs; K&Ks, JJB 330s, JJB 220S, HFNs, Macintyre Feathers, Baggs IBeams, etc. I think they're all better sounding than a UST and close enough you could choose any of them as your favorite.

ToneDexter also levels the playing field further.

Agreed! It all comes down to reproducing the tone of one's guitar, and no pickup by itself is a perfect solution to that. The main reason I even started with the K&K was that I wanted something that didn't require a bunch of wiring, batteries, etc in my acoustic guitar.

One of the best acoustic sounds I've ever gotten was with an old Fishman Matrix dual source with a blender preamp, with a UST and a Crown lapel-type condenser mounted inside the guitar, but it was fussy and difficult to achieve the right blend...and there was a LOT of crap mounted in the guitar, which seems problematic to me. The K&Ks were pretty darn close to a natural sound without all that, though...and a qualified success with the JJBs now as well.

The "hot-mids" complaint is common with the K&K/JJB type transducers, and having experienced this myself, it jerked me right back to the lengthy procedure I have used to mike drums....basically, just don't allow the levels of adjacent mikes to be within 3dB of one another or there WILL be phase coloration/cancellation. The results I got applying this to problematic guitars seem to bear me out on this. The wood of a guitar is, after all, an acoustic medium just like the air around a mike, and subject to phase coloration.

[maxtheaxe]

Originally Posted by Marty C

I wish I had seen your post about 2 years earlier. I had a Martin Dread which had the original K & K installed - two large green disks on the outside and small black in the center. I spent tons of money buying different boxes in an attempt to remove that heavy, heavy mid range - but never could. If I got the mid range decent, the lows disappeared. I finally ripped it out and have since tried numerous others. I never thought of removing the center!

I wanted to put the updated K & K in but the original installer put so much glue I could not sand it all out. I think that bridge plate is ruined from putting anything else in. I paid extra when I ordered it to have my top done sunburst and am Leary of getting Chemicals anywhere near the top.

Your idea would have saved me tons of moleleney and frustration.

It seems to me that you should be able to sand enough of the glue off that bridge plate to at least get the surface true and flush...any soaked-in CA shouldn't affect the tone of it. If there are big chunks of dried CA on there, you might try using a scraper, being careful not to snag the pin holes as you work, and then follow with something like 200 grit.

It's in an awkward place for sanding, for sure...hard to get any leverage on it, but...patience.

They say to use a liberal amount of CA to glue these...I guess that true up to a point, and avoiding ridiculous extremes. This by itself may account for some of the differences people perceive in the tone of these. I've certainly noticed some variables between one guitar and another, but I'm not sure it's possible to tell if it's the guitar or my installation.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

…I've installed dozens of SBTs; K&Ks, JJB 330s, JJB 220s, HFNs, Macintyre Feathers, Baggs IBeams, etc. I think they're all better sounding than a UST and close enough you could choose any of them as your favorite.

Hi jonfields

Yes, most of what we share in this forum is subjective, or at least experiential. If one couples a decent preamp with any of the Sound Board Transducers, many of the imperfections can be smoothed out.

I'm glad I moved from under saddle dual source rigs to K&K dual source rigs about 15 years ago. Less hassle, and more acoustic-guitar-like sound appeals to me.

I'm always happier if running sound for a gig when someone shows up with a K&K over an under saddle pickup or a magnetic pickup. No matter what they have, I'll make it sound as good as possible.

I'm still not recommending saving $40 in a $300-500 pickup rig by putting a less expensive pickup in $2000 guitar. My live sound represents me to an audience.

And if I were starting fresh today - I'd keep my K&K dual source rigs and pair them with a ToneDexter. Why keep the passive dual source rigs (and a preamp)? In case the ToneDexter decides to go on vacation (cease to work) during a gig.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi jonfields

Yes, most of what we share in this forum is subjective, or at least experiential. If one couples a decent preamp with any of the Sound Board Transducers, many of the imperfections can be smoothed out.

I'm glad I moved from under saddle dual source rigs to K&K dual source rigs about 15 years ago. Less hassle, and more acoustic-guitar-like sound appeals to me.

I'm always happier if running sound for a gig when someone shows up with a K&K over an under saddle pickup or a magnetic pickup. No matter what they have, I'll make it sound as good as possible.

I'm still not recommending saving $40 in a $300-500 pickup rig by putting a less expensive pickup in $2000 guitar. My live sound represents me to an audience.

And if I were starting fresh today - I'd keep my K&K dual source rigs and pair them with a ToneDexter. Why keep the passive dual source rigs (and a preamp)? In case the ToneDexter decides to go on vacation (cease to work) during a gig.

I think when you talk about exact differences in output levels and imply that leads to a noise problem, it makes an opinion sound like fact. I'm trying to be careful to express my opinions as opinions even though I'm pretty certain I'm usually right :~) !

I do agree that putting a lesser branded pickup like JJB in an expensive guitar is not the best decision given a possible future resale (seems many AGF members have trouble holding on to guitars).

By the way I agree to my ear the JJB 330 sounds a little lower in volume than the K&K Mini which means since -1 dB is barely audible that it must be more than that. But I've never installed both a K&K and JJB even in similar instruments and had them here at the same time (largely because I only put JJBs in cheaper instruments for friends).

There seems to be lots of comments on sensor size, which while no doubt meaningful, needs to be combined with the specific piezo material, and piezo element thickness for comparison across brands. Since we don't know what any of the manufacturers are doing with regards to the last two parameters, I don't think discussing relative sensor size between brands makes sense. Given all the piezo ceramic discs I've seen in distribution are very cheap, and if I was Mr. JJB, I would have reverse engineered K&K's selection and cloned it. It goes to the NIH ego of most designers to choose to do it differently...

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

…There seems to be lots of comments on sensor size, which while no doubt meaningful

Hi jonfields

The 12.5mm sensors on a K&K Pure Mini allowed it to be installed in my OM where a full 15mm sensor would not have fit. It was tight even with the 12.5mm - and that was back when they recommended centering it between the 1st - 2nd string. Trying to do what they recommend now (centering it on the 1st string) would not fit in my Bashkin.

I'm not sure but think Dieter said the recommendation to center it on the first string was an attempt to brighten it a bit (K&Ks and other SBT tend to be weak in the trebles). Being an all flesh (with a hint of nail) I'm fine with it. But a nail player would find it deficient.

And you are correct, lots of people go through lots of guitars. I'd think a ToneDexter would be a good solution for them. And since a Schatten is easily switched, that might be the pickup for frequent swappers.