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  #61  
Old 04-12-2021, 11:30 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
I thought folks here would get a kick out of that.

I found it interesting when he said that the use of pre-delay, as shown to him, was revelatory. It had never occurred to me to focus on that one parameter for any length of time but I'm going to spend a bit of time playing with it on various reverbs.
Yes, his comments on pre-delay also made an impression on me. I'm going to have to spend some time with this to see what impact it has on my recordings.

That was very interesting!

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  #62  
Old 04-12-2021, 12:03 PM
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I generally use pre-delay, but less than he's using. And that's the part I want to go back and check out - he said he'd talk more about it.
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  #63  
Old 04-12-2021, 12:28 PM
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Somewhere just north of 30 milliseconds is when a note delay can begin to sound like an echo. May not notice as such when a fair amount of overlapping other notes are going on.
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  #64  
Old 04-12-2021, 01:45 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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He talked about pre-delay like others talk about compression... the "glue." I've never thought about it that way. I bought into the general premise that you kept the pre-delay under 60 and that once past that, you were heading into delay territory. I've heard that a lot but I've never really tested it. Nelson is clearly very good at what he does. He knows a whole lot more than me and that's a good reason for me to pay attention to what he's saying. That doesn't mean it will gel with me and I'll understand it the way he does but I'm intrigued by what he's saying.
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  #65  
Old 04-12-2021, 04:07 PM
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Yes I have seen that video and I think one he did on delay plugins as well

So on the subject of Pre Delay
I have used it routinely since spending time with an engineer in his Nashville area studio.

So my 101 understanding of pre delay on a reverb is that its function is to have more unprocessed dry signal come through before the actual reverberation processing starts in.
So for example I understand this to mean for vocals, you use pre delay to have more forward presence and breathiness (air) come through before the reflections begin to make presence sit back and will also help maintain clarity and intelligibility even when more effect is used.

I am not sure where the notion that above 30 or 60 ms will begin to create an audible echo effect with pre delay but I use 60 almost all the time and could certainly be wrong and perhaps fooled by my hearing being compromised somewhat . but as far as between 30 and 60 I have not detected any echo .
I do suppose at some point it's possible to hear the processed reverb effect as trailing the unprocessed signal by so long it becomes a noticeably distinct echo and perhaps that would be more noticeable on something like a plucked guitar note as opposed to a sung note ??
But I noticed for example in the video that he had the Seventh Heaven set on 98 ms pre delay until he used it on the orchestra

On solo acoustic guitar I am wondering if pre delay could be considered to help represent something closer to what the player hears in the room . That being the player is going hear the direct sound from the guitar (representing the unprocessed signal if you will ) at some time frame before he hears the room reflections ( the processed signal) ?? just musing
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  #66  
Old 04-12-2021, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
..Also found it interesting how many of the reverbs he's saying he likes, as well as specific presets (Sunset Chamber, Schmidt's "The One"), have already been mentioned or demoed in this thread.
That was me for sure -that video was where I first heard the Seventh Heaven. I really like Marc Daniel Nelson's videos, and Gregory Scott's "Kush Audio" videos too, even though they mostly have nothing to do with the kinds of things I record -I just like their vibe
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  #67  
Old 04-12-2021, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
On solo acoustic guitar I am wondering if pre delay could be considered to help represent something closer to what the player hears in the room . That being the player is going hear the direct sound from the guitar (representing the unprocessed signal if you will ) at some time frame before he hears the room reflections ( the processed signal) ?? just musing
That's how I've always thought of it. If you're playing in a big room, the sound has to hit the back wall, then bounce back, creating the reverb (well, that's oversimplifying, of course). So the pre-delay sort of simulates the size of the room you're in. 60ms would be a 60 foot room.
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  #68  
Old 04-12-2021, 06:18 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Pre-delay from my childhood:



And pre-delay from my 20's:

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  #69  
Old 04-12-2021, 09:25 PM
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More often than not, I use a hardware reverb and use different eq settings for the signals going to the stereo & aux busses. The aux signal is delayed before hitting the chamber & the chamber is eq'd just before being returned to the console and added to the mix.
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Old 04-13-2021, 06:45 AM
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I enjoyed the video by Marc Daniel Nelson. Great style - So much content.

What I noted on the vocal was how easily the intimacy was lost with even some modest reverb settings.

Regarding pre-delay he has another video specific to this, which I found equally interesting and full of examples.



My own use of reverb with the odd exception ranges from none at all to just enough to fill out the sound and obtain more continuity as I tend to play a lot of slower airs. I mainly use Valhalla Room and like the DarkRichChamber preset as a starting point, without pre-delay, but I was particularly interested in the point made in this video that with pre-delay the dry signal shows through first, so could be an alternative to changing the wet/dry mix to keep focus but add depth.

I have added reverb to just the side of MS as a trial and liked it as the mid stays focussed on the dry signal - after watching these videos I plan to have another go playing with the pre-delay. The difficulty doing this is that I have to add the reverb before decoding so experimentation is not so easy.
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Old 04-13-2021, 09:41 AM
runamuck runamuck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
I thought folks here would get a kick out of that.

I found it interesting when he said that the use of pre-delay, as shown to him, was revelatory. It had never occurred to me to focus on that one parameter for any length of time but I'm going to spend a bit of time playing with it on various reverbs.
He also said, comparing one reverb that was being used much wetter than another, that it was more emotional. So...

That's not to say that pre-delay can't have some significance.
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  #72  
Old 04-13-2021, 09:44 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Originally Posted by runamuck View Post
He also said, comparing one reverb that was being used much wetter than another, that it was more emotional. So...
The point you're making here is lost on me. Can you clarify, please?
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  #73  
Old 04-13-2021, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RodB View Post
I have added reverb to just the side of MS as a trial and liked it as the mid stays focussed on the dry signal - after watching these videos I plan to have another go playing with the pre-delay. The difficulty doing this is that I have to add the reverb before decoding so experimentation is not so easy.
I haven't tried that, sounds like an interesting experiment. It shouldn't be too hard, tho. What DAW are you using, and how are you decoding the MS?
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  #74  
Old 04-13-2021, 01:03 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Thanks so much for posting this Video RodB. Very clear-defining explanation.
Doug Young has also a great explanation about predelay and room size. But somehow I was not processing what the real meaning was.
Combining Doug's explanation and RodB's posted video...I now get it.
I will use slightly different wording: The PreDelay---As the guitarist, or vocalist...it is the sound you are hearing Before it hits the room Walls. In effect, it is the amount of time you hear the dry signal Before the Reverb.
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  #75  
Old 04-13-2021, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
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I haven't tried that, sounds like an interesting experiment. It shouldn't be too hard, tho. What DAW are you using, and how are you decoding the MS?
I record as separate tracks and import into waveform 11. This is how I do L and R as well as M and S. It’s the easiest workflow from recording in my Sound Devices MixPre 3. So it is easy to add reverb to side before combining as a stereo track to then decode using Voxengo MSED. I combine by exporting and reimporting a rendered stereo track - i have yet to figure out a way to monitor the decoded signal whilst playing with the reverb to experiment more.
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