#61
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That was very interesting! - Glenn
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#62
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I generally use pre-delay, but less than he's using. And that's the part I want to go back and check out - he said he'd talk more about it.
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#63
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Somewhere just north of 30 milliseconds is when a note delay can begin to sound like an echo. May not notice as such when a fair amount of overlapping other notes are going on.
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
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#64
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He talked about pre-delay like others talk about compression... the "glue." I've never thought about it that way. I bought into the general premise that you kept the pre-delay under 60 and that once past that, you were heading into delay territory. I've heard that a lot but I've never really tested it. Nelson is clearly very good at what he does. He knows a whole lot more than me and that's a good reason for me to pay attention to what he's saying. That doesn't mean it will gel with me and I'll understand it the way he does but I'm intrigued by what he's saying.
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#65
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Yes I have seen that video and I think one he did on delay plugins as well
So on the subject of Pre Delay I have used it routinely since spending time with an engineer in his Nashville area studio. So my 101 understanding of pre delay on a reverb is that its function is to have more unprocessed dry signal come through before the actual reverberation processing starts in. So for example I understand this to mean for vocals, you use pre delay to have more forward presence and breathiness (air) come through before the reflections begin to make presence sit back and will also help maintain clarity and intelligibility even when more effect is used. I am not sure where the notion that above 30 or 60 ms will begin to create an audible echo effect with pre delay but I use 60 almost all the time and could certainly be wrong and perhaps fooled by my hearing being compromised somewhat . but as far as between 30 and 60 I have not detected any echo . I do suppose at some point it's possible to hear the processed reverb effect as trailing the unprocessed signal by so long it becomes a noticeably distinct echo and perhaps that would be more noticeable on something like a plucked guitar note as opposed to a sung note ?? But I noticed for example in the video that he had the Seventh Heaven set on 98 ms pre delay until he used it on the orchestra On solo acoustic guitar I am wondering if pre delay could be considered to help represent something closer to what the player hears in the room . That being the player is going hear the direct sound from the guitar (representing the unprocessed signal if you will ) at some time frame before he hears the room reflections ( the processed signal) ?? just musing
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#66
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That was me for sure -that video was where I first heard the Seventh Heaven. I really like Marc Daniel Nelson's videos, and Gregory Scott's "Kush Audio" videos too, even though they mostly have nothing to do with the kinds of things I record -I just like their vibe
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#67
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#68
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Pre-delay from my childhood:
And pre-delay from my 20's: |
#69
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More often than not, I use a hardware reverb and use different eq settings for the signals going to the stereo & aux busses. The aux signal is delayed before hitting the chamber & the chamber is eq'd just before being returned to the console and added to the mix.
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#70
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I enjoyed the video by Marc Daniel Nelson. Great style - So much content.
What I noted on the vocal was how easily the intimacy was lost with even some modest reverb settings. Regarding pre-delay he has another video specific to this, which I found equally interesting and full of examples. My own use of reverb with the odd exception ranges from none at all to just enough to fill out the sound and obtain more continuity as I tend to play a lot of slower airs. I mainly use Valhalla Room and like the DarkRichChamber preset as a starting point, without pre-delay, but I was particularly interested in the point made in this video that with pre-delay the dry signal shows through first, so could be an alternative to changing the wet/dry mix to keep focus but add depth. I have added reverb to just the side of MS as a trial and liked it as the mid stays focussed on the dry signal - after watching these videos I plan to have another go playing with the pre-delay. The difficulty doing this is that I have to add the reverb before decoding so experimentation is not so easy. |
#71
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That's not to say that pre-delay can't have some significance. |
#72
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The point you're making here is lost on me. Can you clarify, please?
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Jim 2023 Iris ND-200 maple/adi 2017 Circle Strings 00 bastogne walnut/sinker redwood 2015 Circle Strings Parlor shedua/western red cedar 2009 Bamburg JSB Signature Baritone macassar ebony/carpathian spruce 2004 Taylor XXX-RS indian rosewood/sitka spruce 1988 Martin D-16 mahogany/sitka spruce along with some electrics, zouks, dulcimers, and banjos. YouTube |
#73
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Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#74
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Thanks so much for posting this Video RodB. Very clear-defining explanation.
Doug Young has also a great explanation about predelay and room size. But somehow I was not processing what the real meaning was. Combining Doug's explanation and RodB's posted video...I now get it.I will use slightly different wording: The PreDelay---As the guitarist, or vocalist...it is the sound you are hearing Before it hits the room Walls. In effect, it is the amount of time you hear the dry signal Before the Reverb. |
#75
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I record as separate tracks and import into waveform 11. This is how I do L and R as well as M and S. It’s the easiest workflow from recording in my Sound Devices MixPre 3. So it is easy to add reverb to side before combining as a stereo track to then decode using Voxengo MSED. I combine by exporting and reimporting a rendered stereo track - i have yet to figure out a way to monitor the decoded signal whilst playing with the reverb to experiment more.
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