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  #46  
Old 01-08-2006, 01:22 PM
dreamsinger dreamsinger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whamonkey
Can the mods tell me why this thread was even allowed to continue after post #1? Talk about an inflammatory statement(s). For those who take the music in their churches seriously, as more than a "gig on Sunday", it's pretty offensive. To each his own and no personal attack intended to geardaddy or any other folks whose opinions of CCM are less than favorable. Wouldn't it be better to ask if there are any churches out there that play the music you like? Some of the comments posted later about "lacking talent", "justifying GAS", "mediocre volunteers".....c'mon.....has the thread passed tasteful discussion yet?
The man asked for *opinions*, all of which were given in general terms without attacking anyone personally. There isn't even any prohibited religious content. The issues brought up that you find offensive are part and parcel of people who've been there. If your experience is different there is no reason for you to be offended. Just be thankful that you have a better world to live in than some whose opinions you find offensive.
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  #47  
Old 01-08-2006, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar
Hi AST...
Don't know of any scientific or Barna Research papers on it, but as a participant for about 25 years in the contemporary Christian music movement, it seems there has been a steady improvement in the quality of writing, lyrics, playing, recording and distribution systems for the music.

Of course wouldn't we expect that? Isn't maturity a good thing?
I couldn't agree more. There's an incredible difference between "Pass It On" and "Seeing You" (Matt Redman).
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  #48  
Old 01-08-2006, 01:38 PM
SNaP2it SNaP2it is offline
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What is worship? It isn't music. Music is a way of expressing worship. The idea of worship is "to bow down". We can worship God in so many ways; bowing our will before Him, bowing our finances before Him, bowing our desires down before those of others, and offering God the honor He deserves and is worthy of with our songs. That is not about you or what you like. But here is the rub. We select a person or group of persons to lead us in this musical expression of worship. They are limited in their ability to do this by their own human and spiritual experiences, their vocal and musical abilities, their maturity, the quality of the music they have to work with, the desires of the pastor, the likes and dislikes of the congregation, etc...

Is it any wonder that music can often be one of the most divisive forces in a church body? What would Christ want from us? I think He has answered this in John 17 where He prays for the disciples and for all believers, especially in verse 23 where He prays for us as believers to "be brought to complete unity". I don't know if there is a more critical area right now for the church to show grace and mercy to each other.
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  #49  
Old 01-08-2006, 01:58 PM
bradley dr20 bradley dr20 is offline
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Larry, I'd love to get ahold of some of that music you're talking about. I'm referring to contemporary worship which finds itself repeated everywhere, ie Chris Tomlin, Matt Redman, Paul Baloche, etc. I do really like David Crowder, especially the older stuff and Shane and Shane, again, the older stuff. I like writers who take a journey with their songs and come out on the other side better for it. Or writers who explore aspects of God that haven't already been discussed 40 times in other songs, or who at least take a new direction with it. I'd really like to hear some of the stuff you have.
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  #50  
Old 01-08-2006, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar
Hi AST...
Don't know of any scientific or Barna Research papers on it, but as a participant for about 25 years in the contemporary Christian music movement, it seems there has been a steady improvement in the quality of writing, lyrics, playing, recording and distribution systems for the music.

Of course wouldn't we expect that? Isn't maturity a good thing?

You are far more qualified and experienced in these matters than I am and I'm glad you sense overall progress. However I do wonder if there isn't sometimes a tendency to compare the "best" of what is new, to the "worst" of what is old just to make the old look bad ( or the reverse depending on what ones' musical preferences are )
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  #51  
Old 01-08-2006, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrummer
...However I do wonder if there isn't sometimes a tendency to compare the "best" of what is new, to the "worst" of what is old just to make the old look bad ( or the reverse depending on what one's musical preferences are )
Hi AST...
It is probably affected by our personal exposure, experience, and participation as well. And geography has some to do with it. Were we not close to a large metro area (Denver) we could focus only on our small community.

Thankfully there is the internet and groups like this to keep us all a bit more up to speed.
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  #52  
Old 01-08-2006, 04:01 PM
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Bill,
IMHO, church musicians are divided into 2 categories:
1. Well trained
2. Not so well-trained.
Generally, the churches that can afford to pay their musicians CAN afford getting the well-trained musicians. There are churches, like the one I'm at, that can't afford such talent; therefore the music might suffer. Then you also have certain trained musicians that are very traditional in their choice of music...e.g. not everyone is interested in "P&W" music.
But the bottom line is that: It's not a concert, and we're not out there to "perform for the audience".
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  #53  
Old 01-08-2006, 04:34 PM
whamonkey whamonkey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsinger
The man asked for *opinions*, all of which were given in general terms without attacking anyone personally. There isn't even any prohibited religious content. The issues brought up that you find offensive are part and parcel of people who've been there. If your experience is different there is no reason for you to be offended. Just be thankful that you have a better world to live in than some whose opinions you find offensive.
The first statement he makes is most of the people here are Christians and involved with music in their church. He goes on to state that Contemporay Christian Music "sucks" (His words...not mine). I respect his opinion but the thread is out of line in the way it is worded. You may not think so, I do. I've asked the mods to look at the thread and evaluate it for themselves.

I've been the worship leader in my church for 8 years and have dealt with many of the issues discussed here. I'm no better than anybody else, I feel called for the work and have been gifted well enough by His grace to do so. I suggest the book "The Heart of the Artist" by Rory Noland for those of you who feel like exploring the realm music in ministry. The old saying, "You can't please everybody" will definitely always apply regarding music in church. Talent is important but motive trumps it every time. He uses the weak to confound the wise.............

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  #54  
Old 01-08-2006, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geardaddy
Reading people's signatures on this forum, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a lot of folks are christians...so my question is this: why does "contemporary" church music suck so bad? My personal opinion is that music ministers have no taste in music, and people in these bands basically are stuck playing what the director wants. these guys seem to be typically a little nerdy, and into vocal stuff, and don't really understand...anybody got any opinions, re: this? My old church started becoming very musically oriented over the past 5 years, and I just couldn't bare to sit through it anymore...so what is up??, bill
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Quote:
The first statement he makes is most of the people here are Christians and involved with music in their church. He goes on to state that Contemporay Christian Music "sucks" (His words...not mine). I respect his opinion but the thread is out of line in the way it is worded.
Hi folks, just wanted to chime in here before I get to bed... I think it's a pretty good thread and I have learned a lot from other's opinions. Just to clarify, what I have stated is that "a lot of folks are Christians..." not "most" or "all". Neither did I say that they are involved with music in their church. I for example am a Christian who is not involved in music in my church. Secondly I will definitely rephrase my question as "a lot of contemporary music sucks". Third and last, I will apologize to any music ministers or musicians in this forum who took offense of my opinion. It is obviously the opinion of someone who has limited experience. It is only my opinion though. ( I am also not as easily offended as some others...) I thought it generated some pretty frank discussion about this topic, and it seemed like a good topic at the time. The opinions I liked the most were the ones that kind of had me thinking outside the box a little, and being a little more accepting. There are other opinions which I don't necessaruily agree with, but that's ok... But a little edginess and and some colorful language has also spiced up a pretty good debate. (...and by the way, this forum in my experience with other forums is very respectful and considerate...) I certainly will take responsibility for overgeneralizing to make a point, and thanks again...bill
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  #55  
Old 01-09-2006, 01:54 AM
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I've had to be away from the AGF for a couple of days, and am arriving late to the party. I apologize. I apologize, too, if sharing my experience comes across as being haughty or proud - that's a long way from who I am - but it might help if you knew my background.

I'm a seminary trained, full time, ordained minister, one whose primary tool for ministry is music. I have a couple of music degrees and over thirty years experience in leading musical worship in a wide variety of styles. I'm a pro.

I'm also an AGF Moderator, which means I've agreed to uphold our rules and way of doing things. One of those is that we discuss religion only in the Loading Dock section, which is reserved for our Charter Members. That makes discussing church music here very difficut, because we can hardly keep from discussing religion while we talk about worship music. The two are one and the same to me, and cannot be divorced.

As I read through this thread, I recognize that we've crossed the "no religion discussion" rule several times, and are likely to do so again. I ask for the indulgence of those who do not share our faith, who do not wish to read about it. I promise I will do my part to limit religion discussion except on the Dock, but have made a judgement call to allow the posts so far in this thread to stand.

However, I have a tough request. Let's do our very best to talk about HOW we do music in the church, without getting into the WHY. Impossible, I know. But if we are to continue here.... Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.

Now, back to the original post. Geardaddy, I think your original post paints all "contemporary" church music with far to broad a brush. Though you confess to limited experience and say that it's just your opinion, you also say "music ministers have no taste in music,... these guys seem to be typically a little nerdy, and into vocal stuff, and don't really understand." That's pretty insulting of thousands of music ministers you've never met. In my opinion, that's like saying guitar music stinks. Sure, some of it does, and yes, it might generate some good discussion, but you shouldn't be too surprised when people take exception to it.

Are you truly qualified to judge "taste" in musical worship, or to discount other's efforts to serve because you think they're "nerdy?" They "don't really understand," but you do? Do you hear how arrogant and judgemental that comes across?

Here's the deal. If you're asked to lead musical worship, then develop your God given ability to the highest level you can, as a good steward. Then give Him your very best, as a sacrificial offering, asking that it be multiplied like the little boy's fish and loaves. Don't be proud because your fish were better than others', and don't worry if some self-appointed judges decide your fish weren't good enough for the Lord to use.

Don't become arrogant or judgmental if you've been given five talents, or get down on yourself if you've been given one. It's not the amount of talent you've been given, but what you do with it.

If you haven't been asked to lead musical worship, do you think your God-given task is to criticize and insult those who have? To explain to thousands of people on the AGF how you really understand, but those nerdy music ministers don't? Respectfully, I don't think so. Whether your name is Isaac Watts or Fanny Crosby or Bill Gaither or Chris Tomlin or (fill in the blank), your role is to make things better. As long as you're just blasting the nerds who don't understand, you're not adding anything. You're not building, you're destroying, which is always a lot easier and more seductive.

If you can do things better, great. Get to it! Isaac Watts wrote "When I Survey" and "Joy to the World" because he was dissatisfied with the way things were in the church music of his day. Go build a ministry that touches people and changes their lives. But be ready for those with "superior" musical tastes. They will try to destroy your work because it's too __________.

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  #56  
Old 01-09-2006, 03:29 AM
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I actually thought this discussion was not so much about religion as it is about music. The characterizations were not directed at anyone specific yet seem to resonate with enough people to give it at least some creedence. Should anyone feel insulted, could it be because they recognized themselves in those generalizations? I've got a music degree and a history since childhood of performing church music. I've always had to perform to a high standard to be a member of these groups. God given gift or not, I *have* sat in judgement while auditioning musicians. Setting and maintaining a level of quality is a music directors job that apparently doesn't get done in enough places otherwise this issue wouldn't have come up. Quality issues and judgement are rife in church music; there's an entire segment of the industry devoted to subjects like "production values". I'm sure you've at least been invited to seminars on such things. You want to see judgement in a Christian environment? Try doing P&W in a Nashville church. This isn't about religion, it's about bad music that happens to be in church.
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  #57  
Old 01-09-2006, 05:05 AM
notamartinfan notamartinfan is offline
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I run the risk of crossing the line, but so be it. I am speaking as someone who agrees with quality music in the church being a goal. Quality as in the lyrics speaking sound doctrine and good theology, musicians and instruments in tune, and being played well enough as to not be a distraction to those entering in to worship. Now, I toe the line.

For those who have so much to complain about when it comes to church music, ask yourself this: Where in the NT is there an instance of music being such a focal point of a scheduled corporate worship gathering? Aside from John's vision of heaven in Revelation the only other reference to music/song in corporate gatherings of worship is in Ephesians 5. And even then, the writer is talking about what should be taking place in the everyday life of the believer.

To get down to "brass tacks", musical expression of worship is required in general, not just Sunday morning. Spend time in personal worship with your style of music Monday-Saturday. Prefer one another, or submit to one another (also in Eph 5) on Sunday and get over yourselves. That takes a maturity that is not often enough fostered in today's churches.

I know that this will probably get the thread closed, and I'm fine with that. I understand the forum rules, but they do not outweigh the individual responsibility of every believer to refocus things on God. Getting that upset about musical ability, tastes, or uses means we are being selfish. Selfishness and worship of God can't co-exist. Then it becomes just "church music". Then, it's pointless.
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  #58  
Old 01-09-2006, 05:37 AM
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First, thanks Cotten for the intervention and sage reply......much appreciated. I think the crux of the issue here is worship music in church is not an industry, or shouldn't be IMHO. We strive for perfection but realize that the performance is not always the focus. Picture your child giving you a painting. He spends time and effort on it and it's pretty darn good. What do you do with it? Admire it for it's beauty and the heart behind the gift, or analyze the flaws? Are we any different in our paltry offerings to Him? Our righteousness is as filthy rags folks. Our BEST efforts don't impress Him. (They might impress the congregation though.....is that our goal?)

Anyhow, dreamsinger and others, truce. Forgive me for taking offense, musicians tend to be moody.
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  #59  
Old 01-09-2006, 05:41 AM
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As I read each post, I kept coming back to one thing: What is the definition of "sucks"?
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  #60  
Old 01-09-2006, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamsinger
....I *have* sat in judgement while auditioning musicians.
I have too, and will continue to do so. It's a big part of my job. However, don't miss the difference here. My purpose in judging is to encourage and build up, to help people sharpen their musical skills and the ability to use them effectively. I do that with 3-year old short people and with 93-year old getting shorter people, and all ages in between. When I've had to turn someone down in an audition, it is always with an encouragement and information on how to get better so that they will succeed next time. That's entirely different from what Geardaddy is doing. He's not involved in music ministry in any way. His first post sounds like he just sits back and criticizes in self righteous judgment of those who are involved.

That's two entirely different approaches to judgment in church music. The first will lead to improvement, even excellence. The second will cause people to quit trying because they can never measure up to some unknown standard that self proclaimed, yet totally uninvolved experts employ.

Quote:
....This isn't about religion, it's about bad music that happens to be in church.
I agree that that's what we need to focus on, yet notamartinfan's post above (#58) demonstrates how very intertwined religion and it's musical expressions are.

If we simply cannot find some way to focus on the music, this thread will be moved over to the Loading Dock where religion discussion is allowed. We're probably there already....

Yes, there needs to be good taste and judgment in church music, and no, not every church music leader will do it well. The answer lies not in firing from somewhere at the top of the stadium a sniper bullet that ony wounds and kills, but in actually getting down on the playing field, taking music leaders where they are and building them up, encouraging them to constantly sharpen their skills and deepen their understanding.

Geardaddy's first post was one of a sniper. I prefer the role of a player/coach.

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