I'm always wondering if I should take classical lessons

[TBman]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Get pumping nylon.

Keep in mind, nylon strings are so much more expressive and responsive to dynamics than steel, so taking classical lessons on steel will only reap you a small amount of the full benefits.

I have that somewhere. I'll dig it out, and my classical as well, and start doing some work with it. If I put strap buttons in my classical, will they come and get me?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by TBman

when I retire, that is.

I know that if I do the right hand studies a few times a week, my right hand gets fairly more competent so I'm wondering if I really need anything more than serious right hand work.

I always tell myself that over 50 years I've accumulated too many bad habits so I'm just better off doing some drills a few times a week instead of just tunes every day.

Has anyone else taken classical lessons, but stayed a steel string player?

Hi Barry
If there is a 'discipline' which is rigid and inflexible it is classical guitar.

Your assessment is that you have too many accumulated bad habits…they would agree. But to assume if you switch to classical hand position, arm position, wrist position, and guitar position is going to make you a better player may be flawed.

It is a totally separate and very different discipline from fingerstyle on acoustic. The dirty little secret is that Terrega and Segovia disagreed on many points of classical discipline, and both schools are still disagreeing decades later.

And Flamenco is a spin off from classical which rejects many of the classical assumptions and disciplines (beyond playing bare footed, and on crossed legs).

Classical teachers usually start with the premise that their method is the correct method, and all others are sub-standard and wrong. Classical teachers work from scores, and being letter-perfect is the goal. It is not chordaly based, but linear and score driven.

There are drawbacks to playing with a footstool (lower back problems in older classical players), and their hand position (wrist problems).

I just think you should go into it with eyes open, should you give it a go.

I agree with Jayne's suggestion, and the Pumping Nylon suggestions.

Unless you plan on switching to classical playing, then realize the best fingerstyle players in the world share a lot of 'bad-habits' with you (including Mark Knopfler and Tommy Emmanuel).

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by TBman

I know that if I do the right hand studies a few times a week, my right hand gets fairly more competent so I'm wondering if I really need anything more than serious right hand work.
Has anyone else taken classical lessons, but stayed a steel string player?

Not a bad idea at all to be open to challenging your current habits. It's a good way of getting out of a rut and reaching a higher plateau.

I have played both classical guitar repertoire and fingerstyle repertoire for decades now and on classical guitars and flattops. There is a lot of crossover between the two. I have adopted parts of both. I use more or less the flamenco sitting position which is typical for many fingerstyle players and use some of the string tone methods of both.


All to often I hear fingerstyle players that play very tentatively and with little control of string volume. The melody get buried in the other notes and there is little presented to the listener's ear that drives the music forward. Those issues are much less common among classical guitar players so they must be doing some things right.


As far as study materials fairly gentle approach to classical technique is
Frederick Noad's Solo Guitar Playing Books 1 & 2.
https://www.amazon.com/Solo-Guitar-P.../dp/0825636795

[TBman]

Thanks everyone. Rick, I'm going to give those two books a try. I'm wondering if I really need to dust off El cheapo classical or just stay with my steel.

[dkstott]

I'm late to this discussion, but here goes:

I did the Classical lesson routine in an effort to improve my right hand technique along with working thru sections of Pumping Nylon. In particular, I really wanted to use my right ring finger a lot more and stop planting my pinky on the soundboard. I didn't always plant my pinky on the soundbaord, it sort of just happened during difficult sections which would slow down my playing of semi-classical pieces.

The old saying "You have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince" applies to Classical instructors with respect to their rigid beliefs and methods.

One told me "if you are going to take lessons with me, you WILL play with the guitar on the left leg". There was no flexibility in his teaching process.

Another refused to consider my years of playing, he wanted me to start at the very beginning of learning guitar & learning to read sheet music.

As a teenage, I broke several bones in my left hand and thumb. So my left hand technique can't be anywhere near the preferred classical technique. Even though I had another instructor several times that my focus was on my right hand, we began every lesson with him harping on my left thumb positioning.

Needless to say, they were kicked to the curb in short order.

I finally found a classical player with some flexibility on his methods. We worked on technique routines that required the use of the right ring finger and forced me to NOT use the others. We then progressed to using just the middle and ring finger in playing.

We then worked on songs that I knew by heart. He had me document the right hand fingering on the music to force me to use the ring finger. It was like learning the song all over again.

My planting of the pinky was so ingrained I didn't even know I was doing it. He decided to stomp his foot on the floor every time I did it.

Between Pumping Nylon book and getting the immediate feedback from the instructor, my PIMA has really improved. I rarely plant my pinky on the soundboard anymore.

For me, I think taking classical lessons was a great idea.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Barry
If there is a 'discipline' which is rigid and inflexible it is classical guitar.

Your assessment is that you have too many accumulated bad habits…they would agree. But to assume if you switch to classical hand position, arm position, wrist position, and guitar position is going to make you a better player may be flawed.

It is a totally separate and very different discipline from fingerstyle on acoustic. The dirty little secret is that Terrega and Segovia disagreed on many points of classical discipline, and both schools are still disagreeing decades later.

And Flamenco is a spin off from classical which rejects many of the classical assumptions and disciplines (beyond playing bare footed, and on crossed legs).

Classical teachers usually start with the premise that their method is the correct method, and all others are sub-standard and wrong. Classical teachers work from scores, and being letter-perfect is the goal. It is not chordaly based, but linear and score driven.

There are drawbacks to playing with a footstool (lower back problems in older classical players), and their hand position (wrist problems).

I just think you should go into it with eyes open, should you give it a go.

I agree with Jayne's suggestion, and the Pumping Nylon suggestions.

Unless you plan on switching to classical playing, then realize the best fingerstyle players in the world share a lot of 'bad-habits' with you (including Mark Knopfler and Tommy Emmanuel).

With all due respect Larry, I think you are painting an overly dark and foreboding picture of the current classical guitar scene.
I don't think it is the OP's intent to follow in the footsteps of Segovia, but rather just explore the playing horizon with exposure to classical technique and the potential it might have to further his own playing.
As such, it's at least worth a shot, even if it doesn't pan out, because there is a lot of good to be found in it.
No one here I believe is confusing the virtuoso abilities of players like TE and others in different styles who don't "play classical".
It's all good.
I think the days of the overly rigid "Segovia" approach are no longer in vogue and current classical musicians are much more open minded than previous generations about guitar playing in general.
Even Segovia was starting to soften at the end of his playing days:

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by AndreF

I think the days of the overly rigid "Segovia" approach are no longer in vogue and current classical musicians are much more open minded than previous generations about guitar playing in general.
Even Segovia was starting to soften at the end of his playing days:

Love the comic, I wish I was at that show :-) I agree. My experience growing up was similar to Larry's, the old school classical players were pretty rigid. That seems to no longer be the case. Today's classical players likely grew up playing Hendrix or Green Day or Taylor Swift :-) or even Don Ross/Andy McKee, etc, whatever, depending on their generation. I know one very talented and very serious classical player who has toured with YoYo Ma - but also plays in an Irish band and plays bass in a heavy metal band. People aren't so one-sided these days.

I don't see how lessons in classical guitar could hurt, as long as one is interested in the technique and/or repertoire. In spite of some differences, fingerstyle and classical share a lot.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by AndreF

With all due respect Larry, I think you are painting an overly dark and foreboding picture of the current classical guitar scene.

Hi Andre

You may be right. I painted it as far to the dark side as I could, partially because I was raised and trained in an extremely biased and exclusionary classical environment, which I escaped after leaving college having spent nearly 16 years under different expressions under the classical thumb (vocal & instrumental lessons, bands and orchestras, compositional classes and classical theory) .

While part of the classical world, I was critical of the pop, rock, jazz, & folk culture and musicians…just like my other classical friends. Then I discovered the Beatles, and life changed musically for me.

It may be in your part of the world the classical world is loosening. I hope it is in the 'casual' guitar realm as well. My 'classical guitar' friends locally are still stuck in the rigidness.

I also assume Barry is smart enough to dip his toes into the classical stream, and decide for himself if it's going to help him improve.

[SprintBob]

I think Pumping Nylon is an excellent way to dip your toe into Classical technique. If you read about the author, Scott Tenant, he sounds like a guy you’d go have a beer with and a lot of the music he plays in public is not classical. CGP John Knowles is a big fan of the book’s approach and exercises and his endorsement in an interview I saw led me to purchasing it and beginning to use it as a good source for woodshed work.

[mondoslug]

Originally Posted by TBman

when I retire, that is.

I know that if I do the right hand studies a few times a week, my right hand gets fairly more competent so I'm wondering if I really need anything more than serious right hand work.

If you go for it...and you should your left hand is also going to experience a new world.