What are some good small mics to pickup guitar tone and handling on the body?

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

It sounds like your just trying to use the guitar as a drum? A mic may work, but what many people use for that is an sbt. Some, like Preston Reed, even put sensors all over the place, where they want to hit. Probably easier to control than a hot mic. Keep in mind that Tommy typically plays big rooms with very good sound systems and professional sound engineers. If that's the circuit you play, you can probably get away with a system that would be more problematic in a small venue where you are doing your own sound.

It sounds like you need to just dive in and try things to find what you want.

Partly as a drum ya. Similar to like what Tommy does. He gets really nice volume just from rubbing on the body also. All of that stuff is really appealing to me. For me for tone, I'm not so fussy. I care more for the feel of the instrument, and the music itself. The mic is mostly to pickup body noise for me, which in the studio a mic can get nicely, but not so much on a stage setting or out and about somewhere.

For sound I'm not too worried. I'm quite proficient at audio production so if I have to do the sound myself, or instruct the sound person how to handle the mic, I don't mind that. And I'll probably have to struggle with it a little with it at first.

Hopefully I'll get to play at some large venues, but I'm not there yet lol.

I think I may explore building a mic from parts. I know someone who is quite good at electronics and he made some cheap mics. I think with some trial and error we might be able to make something cool. It doesn't need to sound "amazing" for my needs. Some rejection is good, picking up a lot of body noise is good, and pairing well with the tone of my guitar and the pickup system. As long as it doesn't sound low bit or like some really cheap tinny thing. I might explore that phase idea they have with the dual mics as well. That seems like an interesting way to eliminate some bass. I found some cool YouTube videos about microphone design as well, so this might end up being a pretty cool quest. Hopefully it won't fail miserably lol. But it would be sweet to have a mic pickup I partially designed and built myself. I'd be pretty stoked with that.

[Monk of Funk]

Sorry Doug, I'm still on my quest to find a suitable microphone for my specific needs. I came across the cloudvocal GT-10, which looks very cool, but the 10ms latency on it is really a downside. I've not tried it, maybe it would be ok, but I'm really worried about that.

The mini flex look really cool, but they're still out of business.

What are my other options, for mics that go inside the guitar body, that are wired, but don't require me to make major adjustments to my instrument? Something like the miniflex, or cloudvocal?

I'm having trouble even finding options to compare.

So far, it looks like GT-10 is my only real choice, but again, that latency really has me worried, and I can't really try them out in the store. I know for recording with monitoring, 10ms, plus whatever my interface will do is way too much. For playing through an amp, idk. I think it would probably be ok, but I'm not sure.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Sorry Doug, I'm still on my quest to find a suitable microphone for my specific needs. I came across the cloudvocal GT-10, which looks very cool, but the 10ms latency on it is really a downside. I've not tried it, maybe it would be ok, but I'm really worried about that.

.

My suggestions are what I already made, I think. For mics, DPA 4061, Audix L5O, and similar. Simple, easy, put them inside the guitar, run them thru the ring of a TRS jack. You can get the sounds Tommy gets.

For body percussion, an SBT should usually work better, tho. It's what all the slapping/tapping players use. A K&K will do it.

No latency on any of these, simple, non-invasive installs. Tested and used professionally by thousands of players.

[Doug Young]

Have you considered just getting a TE Maton? That way you'd have the same system as Tommy and should be able to replicate the sound you're looking for.

[Monk of Funk]

Sorry, can't delete posts -.-

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

My suggestions are what I already made, I think. For mics, DPA 4061, Audix L5O, and similar. Simple, easy, put them inside the guitar, run them thru the ring of a TRS jack. You can get the sounds Tommy gets.

For body percussion, an SBT should usually work better, tho. It's what all the slapping/tapping players use. A K&K will do it.

No latency on any of these, simple, non-invasive installs. Tested and used professionally by thousands of players.

Sorry, I think I messed something up on my research looking those up earlier and for some reason I thought they were mics that had a gooseneck that hovered over the 12th fret sort of thing. What you mean exactly by "run them thru the ring of a TRS jack"?

Those look like they would be cool, but I'm not sure how I would place them, or be able to position them where I like. That's what I really liked about the miniflex 2 system. It's so frustrating they're not making those lol.

The SBT also looks like a cool idea, but it looks a little invasive from what I can tell, do you think that would really help picking up artificial harmonics?

That's really the 2 things I'm looking for. I'm not actually that picky about tone, or timbre. As long as the body sound, the harmonics and all of that stuff comes out loud and consistently, and with low enough latency.

I actually play quite a different style from tommy emmanuel most of the time. He's a really great guitarist, and I have a ton of respect for him, and what he has done for acoustic guitar, but I don't really aspire to sound like him, if you know what I mean. I would more like to develop my own voice.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Sorry, I think I messed something up on my research looking those up earlier and for some reason I thought they were mics that had a gooseneck that hovered over the 12th fret sort of thing. What you mean exactly by "run them thru the ring of a TRS jack"?

OK, let's back up a bit. So you have a Taylor with an expression system? That's going to be hard to extend or modify. Not impossible, but not straight-forward. There''s no reason harmonics shouldn't come out just fine with that guitar, tho. Body percussion, maybe not. But if you can't get harmonics, something's wrong somewhere...

As far as adding a 2nd pickup to a jack, this is a very common dual-source thing. You need to have a jack in the guitar that has 2 outputs, tip and ring. You use a stereo cable to bring out both sources. Here's a blog post, with step by step how I add an internal mic to a K&K, complete with photos. That should clear a few things up:

https://dougyoungguitar.com/blog/blo...l-mic-to-a-k-k

Harmonics should not be a problem with any pickup I've encountered. Some magnetics have null spots for harmonics, and you have to learn where to trigger them. USTs, SBTs, mics, all should work just fine for harmonics. For body percussion, you need an SBT and/or a mic.

I'm not sure why you think SBTs are invasive (and if they were, would that matter if you got the sound you want? Your Taylor system is invasive - it's built structurally into the guitar!). Many SBTs simply stick on with double sticky tape. Don't like them, reach in and pull them off. K&Ks are glued, but again no big deal, they don't affect the look or acoustic sound of the guitar, and they pop off with a razor blade.

Overall, my suggestion would be to pick someone who's playing demonstrates the sounds you want - doesn't have to be your playing style, just do they get harmonics and body noises? Then see what gear they use - you *know* it works for them, it will work for you. My suggestion would be to just get a K&K installed and I think you'd be all set as far as the 2 things you say you want. But virtually any system that includes an SBT and/or an internal mic should work as well. This shouldn't be hard, and you shouldn't need to search for little-known systems that no one else uses.

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

OK, let's back up a bit. So you have a Taylor with an expression system? That's going to be hard to extend or modify. Not impossible, but not straight-forward. There''s no reason harmonics shouldn't come out just fine with that guitar, tho. Body percussion, maybe not. But if you can't get harmonics, something's wrong somewhere...

Harmonics at the 12th fret come out just fine. Other artificial harmonics don't come out clean and loud. Like 7th fret ones, also. And that really bums me out. I sometimes get them wrong just acoustically, but plugged in, it's consistently bad.

As far as adding a 2nd pickup to a jack, this is a very common dual-source thing. You need to have a jack in the guitar that has 2 outputs, tip and ring. You use a stereo cable to bring out both sources. Here's a blog post, with step by step how I add an internal mic to a K&K, complete with photos. That should clear a few things up:

b

Harmonics should not be a problem with any pickup I've encountered. Some magnetics have null spots for harmonics, and you have to learn where to trigger them. USTs, SBTs, mics, all should work just fine for harmonics. For body percussion, you need an SBT and/or a mic.

I'm not sure why you think SBTs are invasive (and if they were, would that matter if you got the sound you want? Your Taylor system is invasive - it's built structurally into the guitar!). Many SBTs simply stick on with double sticky tape. Don't like them, reach in and pull them off. K&Ks are glued, but again no big deal, they don't affect the look or acoustic sound of the guitar, and they pop off with a razor blade.

The expression system is invasive, but it came like that. I don't really want to permanently modify my guitar. I came across a video from Billy Strings, where he does an equipment rundown on his live rig, and he uses a lave mic, Audio Technica 350 he called it, which he tapes to the body, sort of where the miniflex would go. I'm not sure what sort of tape he uses though. I wouldn't want to ruin the finish of my guitar. Maybe it's like a painter's tape, but it's black.

Overall, my suggestion would be to pick someone who's playing demonstrates the sounds you want - doesn't have to be your playing style, just do they get harmonics and body noises? Then see what gear they use - you *know* it works for them, it will work for you. My suggestion would be to just get a K&K installed and I think you'd be all set as far as the 2 things you say you want. But virtually any system that includes an SBT and/or an internal mic should work as well. This shouldn't be hard, and you shouldn't need to search for little-known systems that no one else uses.

I think what makes it difficult is I don't want to alter the guitar, and I have a specific place I tap on my guitar. I've seen this guy tape lavs on his guitar, kind of like this "https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nUtTfjq7CyU/maxresdefault.jpg" But this is a pickup. I guess he tapes to keep it in the right position. Where he tapes his lav when I've seen it, won't work for me, because it's right where I would be hitting the body of the guitar.

I think I'm gonna have to go to music stores and see how their lavs work.

SBT sounds like it might be cool, maybe a K&K might do the trick, but I don't really want to modify the guitar in a permanent way. Especially not without having tried the setup already, and knowing exactly how it will sound and feel.

I think I may end up just taping a lav into the guitar similar to what Billy Strings does. I could modify a soundhole cover to fit that, also.

I noticed in another thread you pointed out callum graham was using a silver bullet mic he had inside the guitar. I think these guys generally will use traditional studio recordings and sync to them, as you pointed out in that video.

I have a lot of improvisation in what I do, so that's not possible for me.

The silver bullet mic looks cool though, but it would need to be either fixed inside the guitar, or I'd have to do a tape job with it like Billy Strings does. And I won't have much ability to place where the mic is inside the guitar, as there is no goose neck.

I wish I could buy a miniflex 2 lol. So frustrating. I guess I'll go to the stores and see what they have. But, Idk if they'll let me try their lav mics like that. You say this shouldn't be difficult, but I'm finding it very difficult.

EDIT: I found this bartlett mic review you did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqu7m0np0Oc This looks cool. The clip seems interesting. It's phantom powered though, which is actually a problem for me for my amp I use. But, I do have a little phantom power box, which I could use, so not the end of the world maybe, but it's a lot of extra stuff to carry, so I'd rather not have to do that.

[SpruceTop]

I find the Expression System 2 in my Taylors is able to pick up top and body knocks and handling very well. The signal output from the ES2 system is basically a combination of a UST and an SBT. Of course, it doesn't pick up the internal airborne sound vibrations as does a mic. If that's what I wanted to add to a guitar's ES2 tone, I'd probably be cavalier enough to drill a hole in the guitar's side and permanently install a mic and endpin preamp of some brand and run a separate guitar cord to a dual-channel preamp or a mixer for blending the ES2 and mic signals.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Keep in mind that Tommy typically plays big rooms with very good sound systems and professional sound engineers. If that's the circuit you play, you can probably get away with a system that would be more problematic in a small venue where you are doing your own sound.

Absolutely. There's also the fact that Tommy has played nearly every night for decades now. I think most musicians that have played nightly for extended periods of time realize that problems tend to diminish as time goes by. That goes to the issue of technical issues as well as actually playing. Even Don Henley says the Eagles are always tighter the second half of a tour than the first half. Goin' for it night after night after night has some genuine pluses!

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I find the Expression System 2 in my Taylors is able to pick up top and body knocks and handling very well. The signal output from the ES2 system is basically a combination of a UST and an SBT. Of course, it doesn't pick up the internal airborne sound vibrations as does a mic. If that's what I wanted to add to a guitar's ES2 tone, I'd probably be cavalier enough to drill a hole in the guitar's side and permanently install a mic and endpin preamp of some brand and run a separate guitar cord to a dual-channel preamp or a mixer for blending the ES2 and mic signals.

Maybe it's just my guitar then? Idk Taylor is usually pretty consistent I find. Or maybe your year is different? Idk, but the tapping on the body is nowhere near where I'd like it to be, and same for the harmonics.

Maybe I'll have to explore installing something into the guitar. I'll go ask my luthier what options he has, and see what he could do, and how much it would cost.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Maybe it's just my guitar then? Idk Taylor is usually pretty consistent I find. Or maybe your year is different? Idk, but the tapping on the body is nowhere near where I'd like it to be, and same for the harmonics.

Maybe I'll have to explore installing something into the guitar. I'll go ask my luthier what options he has, and see what he could do, and how much it would cost.

What year is your Taylor? The newest ES2 preamp 2017 and newer tend to have less signal output than the older 2013 to 2016 systems but it along with the ES2 pickup's BST (Behind Saddle Transducer) design will provide good top and body vibration to the signal output, at least my 2020 Taylor 717e Honey Burst Builder's Edition does so.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Maybe it's just my guitar then? Idk Taylor is usually pretty consistent I find. Or maybe your year is different? Idk, but the tapping on the body is nowhere near where I'd like it to be, and same for the harmonics.

Maybe I'll have to explore installing something into the guitar. I'll go ask my luthier what options he has, and see what he could do, and how much it would cost.

The Taylor Expression 2 system is a UST - those inherently don't pick up much body sound - some, but not a lot. The Expression 1 had a sort of SBT, but also not all that much body pickup. 99.99% of people don't want a lot of extraneous sound from body handling, so most stock systems are not going to give you what you want.

I think what you're missing is some experience with different systems, which is leading to a lot of misconceptions.

The miniflex is unlikely, for example, to be the right answer. You can't install it in your Taylor because of Taylor's integrated endpin. You'd have to remove the Expression system and replace that whole end pin assembly (there are kits out there to do that), or drill a second end pin jack.

Ignoring the fact that the Taylor system is hard to enhance or modify, your fears of installing internal pickups are misplaced, I think. An SBT or an internal mic will not harm your guitar and can be removed without a trace. On the other hand, taping a mic to the outside of the guitar is not only rather unworkable in a live situation, it's likely to damage your guitar top.

Installing an internal mic is not hard. The K&K system, with the Silver Bullet, for example, comes with the necessary mounting mechanism for the mic. This is not paving new ground, lots of people use these systems, and all the issues have been worked out with known solutions.

yes, the Candyrat players often are playing along to studio recordings in their videos. But the percussion sounds are not the result of some studio magic. External mics aren't going to pick up those drum sounds as well as a pickup. I've heard many of these guys live, including Calem, and they produce those sounds live just fine - 99% of the time with a simple K&K pickup, with or without a mic.

This is a very simple case of you wanting something, there being a straight-forward tool to do what you want, but it's not the tool you have, and you seem to be resisting getting the tools that are working for everyone else. Your choices are to modify your existing guitar, buy a guitar that's already equipped correctly for your needs, or custom install a pickup in a (probably different) guitar. There are *very* few off-the-shelf guitars that support what you want. This is not what guitar manufacturers are selling to mainstream audiences. Nearly everyone goes the custom route. The Matons or Cole Clarks are one exception. You need the right tool, then everything will be easier.

BTW, I suspect your harmonic problem is simply a matter of practice. Playing amplified is not just the same as playing acoustically, but louder. The guitar and its pickups respond differently. You have to practice plugged in and learn a different touch in some cases. Your artificial harmonics is likely a good example of that.

I'm kind of out of suggestions for you. Perhaps you should write to some of the people who's sound you like and ask them for advice on what they use. I bet Calem would answer an email from you, for example.

[Rick Jones]

I was obsessed with the percussive thing for years, and I’ve tried a huge array of amplification methods. Not as many as Doug, but in my case, often on a tight (working gigging solo guitar player) budget which forced me to live with and use the latest thing I’d bought and installed until I had the means to try the next thing.

I now do a bit of percussive stuff here and there, but still like my entire guitar to be ‘alive’ to handling noise, but with a strong ‘strings’ signal. Lots of bass, lots of fatness to the trebles.

To me, this means two pickups into two channels, an SBT with the upper mids and the technically ‘sub guitar’ (50hz and down) mildly boosted with a strong cut on the frequencies between, with no reverb. Then a magnetic pickup (if it’s the sunrise, eq’d flat) with some reverb on it.

I either run a Sunrise and K&k into a two channel tube acoustic pre-amp by Orange, or a Fishman Powertap Earth straight into the PA via the supplied TRS to Y stereo cable.

I humbly submit that the Powertap Earth would entirely cover you for what you’re trying to do. It sounds very ‘mic like’ at high volume, not least because you can split the SBT to its own channel and then still blend some of the SBT into the mag channel with the flatter EQ. It’s very versatile and you can get a very controllable amount of body sensitivity into the PA at high SPL’s!

[Doug Young]

Sprucetop points out that when I called the Taylor pickup a UST, that's a bit misleading, since the ES2 pickup isn't "under" the saddle, it's "beside" it, pressed against the saddle by the some set screws. A rather brilliant variation on a UST, it still senses the vibration of the saddle, but without the issues of the downward pressure of a normal UST. It probably does pick up a bit more body motion than a true UST, but still won't be close to that of a true SBT. Some people even put in multiple SBTs in the locations they hit, so they're essentially drumming directly on each sensor. Picking up the vibration of the saddle won't compete with that, or even an internal mic.

If you have a ES1 Taylor (which is a normal UST, but also has a magnetic SBT-like sensor as well as a magnetic one), you might want to try an ES2 system to see if the added sensitivity is enough for you. My bet is not, and unless I'm mistaken, I've not seen any of the Candyrat slappling/tapping crew using either Taylor system.

OK, Sprucetop corrects me again, he says the ES1 only had the SBT and Mag, no UST. He's probably correct, its been ages since that system was replaced and I've likely forgotten. it was not a great system, and Taylor quickly replaced it with the ES2, which in my limited exposure to it (not a Taylor person), sounds pretty good, tho it does not do what our OP wants out of a guitar - extreme body sensitivity.