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  #16  
Old 06-27-2020, 05:02 PM
SiliconValleySJ SiliconValleySJ is offline
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Originally Posted by justonwo View Post
I'd say any builder working at a high level is going to apply a very thin finish. You probably want someone who does their own finish work.
I agree with much of this thread so far but I think this is the one statement that isn't true. Some of the best don't do it--the Kinnairds, James Goodall, Leo Buendia, etc. use a separate finisher. Tony Ferguson and Addam Stark (I don't know James and Luke's finish person) do an awesome job across multiple finish types and can do lighter finishes on request too.
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  #17  
Old 06-27-2020, 05:22 PM
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My 1931 00-18 Authentic is billed to be built exactly like a 1931 Martin that was measured recently. The finish is thinner than regular modern Martin builds. It's been noted that finishes thin over the years.
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  #18  
Old 06-27-2020, 05:41 PM
jt1 jt1 is offline
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My favorite steel string guitar maker once told me that he thinks that the finish can contribute as much as a third to a guitar's tone. He uses an impossibly thin oil varnish finish that takes nearly an impossible time to apply, perfect, and cure. To my ears, the time, effort, and expense (to me) are more than worthwhile.

As others have observed, a lot of good guitar makers also apply good finishes. Let your ears rather than your eyes guide you.

IMVHO, some of the go-to guitar finishers for small shop luthiers apply very shiny, beautiful (to some), but thick finishes, which, again to my ears, negatively impact the tone of what are otherwise lovely creations.
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  #19  
Old 06-27-2020, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jt1 View Post
As others have observed, a lot of good guitar makers also apply good finishes. Let your ears rather than your eyes guide you.

IMVHO, some of the go-to guitar finishers for small shop luthiers apply very shiny, beautiful (to some), but thick finishes, which, again to my ears, negatively impact the tone of what are otherwise lovely creations.
To your point, the difficulty applying a thin finish is the realty of possibly buffing through the finish which costs additional time repairing the mistake and even more cure time before one can attempt to buff it again. Therefore, if I only did finish work the tendency would be to apply additional finish to cover your back side.
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  #20  
Old 06-27-2020, 06:42 PM
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I was misunderstood earlier. A finish rigid enough to offer realistic protection from pick damage or abusive handling is a big negative where response, volume, and tone are concerned. Why would we want to spend serious effort and capital buying superior tonewoods so the structure can be minimalist, and then add structure back in with a rigid film of solids? Unfortunately, this is the current industry standard, and makes it really easy for myself and some others to compare well.

Also, the surface of the guitar itself, which is where the bulk of what we hear when we play comes from, radiates a different quality of sound depending on how hard that surface is. Harder surfaces are overly crisp, brittle, or strident to my ears. Yes, I may be jumping to a conclusion, but I work as though that were true and my result bear it up nicely. As I said earlier, it is a very complex subject.
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  #21  
Old 06-28-2020, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 0twentyone View Post
No mention yet of French Polishing. I know it's very labor intensive and expensive, but will that finish be even thinner ? Classical builders swear by it and have for years. Same with the violin makers.
I have a soft spot for French Polish having owned (still own...) three guitar that all sound wonderful. It is beautiful and I have found it to be less fragile than expressed in the concerns we sometimes hear. And does FB have a pleasant fragrance? Maybe...

Thick/thin...no idea!
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  #22  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:04 AM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
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Any useful finish is going to be a harder material than the soft early wood in the top. A coat of finish on the top will thus tend to add a certain amount of stiffness across the grain. Even a thin layer has an effect, since the tension/compression forces when the wood bends are highest in the surface layer. Schleske put some numbers to that in his 'On the Acoustical Properties of Violin Varnish' in the 'Journal' of the Catgut Acoustical Society, Vol. 3 #6 pp 27-43 Nov. '98. I'll note that his 'violin varnishes' included at least one sample of nitrocellulose lacquer as well as shellac. I suspect this surface stiffening effect is what Bruce is hearing.

I'm still brushing oil varnish, and seem to get a reasonably consistent film thickness of .0025" or so. Note that due to the slow cure rate of oil varnishes this will not stay level; even wood movement with humidity changes will show. That super level show car finish really needs more material. Ovation tops don't show much wood grain, but they use as much as .04" of epoxy....

Last edited by Alan Carruth; 06-28-2020 at 11:09 AM.
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  #23  
Old 06-28-2020, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiliconValleySJ View Post
I agree with much of this thread so far but I think this is the one statement that isn't true. Some of the best don't do it--the Kinnairds, James Goodall, Leo Buendia, etc. use a separate finisher. Tony Ferguson and Addam Stark (I don't know James and Luke's finish person) do an awesome job across multiple finish types and can do lighter finishes on request too.
Just my personal preference. I have owned a Goodall and a two guitars finished by Addam Stark. I prefer those that do it themselves. I think it’s an important part of the overall process.
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