pondering the archtop

[tmont]

Exploring entering the archtop world....I currently own two Martins and an old Guild. I enjoy the 1 3/4 nut that both Martins have. Recently started playing some jazz and thus interest in adding an archtop.

I have two I am considering....
1. Eastman AR805CE and
2. Gibson ES-125
Two quite different guitars and I know the Gibson with not have the 1 3/4 nut. But I do like older guitars. My Guild is a 1970 vintage.

So I am asking your opinion on a first archtop.
If you gotta go thru a minefield, follow somebody.
Tom

[RLetson]

I have a mid-60s Guild D-40 and an AR805CE, and I find the necks on both pretty comfortable for my old hands. The Guild has what was for a long time their standard width/profile (1-11/16"), and the profile of the Eastman's 1-3/4 neck gives me no trouble at all. (In my dotage I'm getting a bit of arthritis in the joint at the base of the thumb.)

The Eastman is also a very respectable acoustic guitar, while I suspect the ES-125 really wants to be amplified.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by tmont

...I enjoy the 1-3/4" nut that both Martins have. Recently started playing some jazz and thus interest in adding an archtop.

I have two I am considering....
1. Eastman AR805CE and
2. Gibson ES-125...

My thoughts:

• The Eastman is a lifetime keeper, as good as it gets in an affordable all-carved 16-incher, with its suspended pickup is a true dual-purpose acoustic + electric instrument, and if you want a "modern" sounding archtop after the Benedetto model (smoother and warmer, with less acoustic volume) with a 1-3/4" neck this is your guitar;
• In spite of its appearance the ES-125 was intended from day one as a dedicated electric guitar but, in spite of its all-laminated construction (FYI less detrimental to acoustic tone than for an equivalent flattop), the best examples not only offer surprising acoustic volume/tone but the chunky postwar necks (first-fret thickness generally hovering around .90+/-) provide the bulk many players tend to associate with a 1-3/4" neck;
• If you're looking for a new guitar with that dry, strident prewar tone (with looks to match) the Loar LH-700 is a near dead-ringer for a Mother Maybelle/Eddie Lang late-1920's 16" L-5 - complete with the period-accurate cheeky, hard-V 1-3/4" neck which, if you're used to the more contemporary profiles of newer Martins, can be a real handful (and, in my own case, a total deal-killer) - QC can be iffy though (particularly neck geometry - very important for an archtop), so you might need to sort through a pool of frogs to find your princess;
• Many of the comments I made about the ES-125 also apply to the New York-era (pre-1957) Epiphones: if you're looking for a first-tier vintage acoustic instrument with no compromises in tone or quality (BTW Gibson considered Epiphone their only real competition during the Big Band/early-postwar era) one of these can not only be had for substantially less than the equivalent Gibson models, but if you've got the itch to step up to a 17-incher player-grade non-cutaway Triumph and Broadway models (and very-good-to-excellent examples of the rare postwar Devon) can still be had for under $3000 - about what you'd pay for the upper-line Eastman fare...
• Finally, if you're more inclined toward the ES-125 there are several models in the Godin lineup that may suit your needs, most of which sell for under $1K: the 5th Avenue acoustic archtop (unfortunately discontinued), the Kingpin electric (their version of the ES-125 single-pickup non cutaway jazzbox), the CW II (a single cut two-pickup ES-175 style hollowbody, available with either P-90's or humbuckers and favored by Tony Bennett's guitarist), and the new 5th Avenue Jumbo models (a latter-day adaptation of the big-body postwar ES-150/300, equipped with twin humbuckers/P-90's or a single Duncan P-Rail in the neck position - the latter unfortunately also sporting a Bigsby) - and speaking as a long-time owner of both a 5th Avenue acoustic and a CW II, IME there's nothing better out there in terms of QC/tone/playability in an entry-level jazzbox...

Good luck...

[tmont]

Lots of great information to digest!
Thanks for your input!
Tom

[radiofm74]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

My thoughts:

• The Eastman is a lifetime keeper, as good as it gets in an affordable all-carved 16-incher, with its suspended pickup is a true dual-purpose acoustic + electric instrument, and if you want a "modern" sounding archtop after the Benedetto model (smoother and warmer, with less acoustic volume) with a 1-3/4" neck this is your guitar;
• In spite of its appearance the ES-125 was intended from day one as a dedicated electric guitar but, in spite of its all-laminated construction (FYI less detrimental to acoustic tone than for an equivalent flattop), the best examples not only offer surprising acoustic volume/tone but the chunky postwar necks (first-fret thickness generally hovering around .90+/-) provide the bulk many players tend to associate with a 1-3/4" neck;
• If you're looking for a new guitar with that dry, strident prewar tone (with looks to match) the Loar LH-700 is a near dead-ringer for a Mother Maybelle/Eddie Lang late-1920's 16" L-5 - complete with the period-accurate cheeky, hard-V 1-3/4" neck which, if you're used to the more contemporary profiles of newer Martins, can be a real handful (and, in my own case, a total deal-killer) - QC can be iffy though (particularly neck geometry - very important for an archtop), so you might need to sort through a pool of frogs to find your princess;
• Many of the comments I made about the ES-125 also apply to the New York-era (pre-1957) Epiphones: if you're looking for a first-tier vintage acoustic instrument with no compromises in tone or quality (BTW Gibson considered Epiphone their only real competition during the Big Band/early-postwar era) one of these can not only be had for substantially less than the equivalent Gibson models, but if you've got the itch to step up to a 17-incher player-grade non-cutaway Triumph and Broadway models (and very-good-to-excellent examples of the rare postwar Devon) can still be had for under $3000 - about what you'd pay for the upper-line Eastman fare...
• Finally, if you're more inclined toward the ES-125 there are several models in the Godin lineup that may suit your needs, most of which sell for under $1K: the 5th Avenue acoustic archtop (unfortunately discontinued), the Kingpin electric (their version of the ES-125 single-pickup non cutaway jazzbox), the CW II (a single cut two-pickup ES-175 style hollowbody, available with either P-90's or humbuckers and favored by Tony Bennett's guitarist), and the new 5th Avenue Jumbo models (a latter-day adaption of the big-body postwar ES-150/300, equipped with twin humbuckers/P-90's or a single Duncan P-Rail in the neck position - the latter unfortunately also sporting a Bigsby) - and speaking as a long-time owner of both a 5th Avenue acoustic and a CW II, IME there's nothing better out there in terms of QC/tone/playability in an entry-level jazzbox...

Good luck...

I can only second what Steve said. I'll only add my (limited so far) personal experience
- 1931-1950 Epiphones are fantastic value. For 5-7k you can get a Deluxe i.e. a top-of-the-line guitar, as good as any other archtop of the era. For substantially less you still can get a wonderful archtop (17" Broadway or Triumph, or if you prefer 16" guitars a Spartan).
- My first archtop was a used Loar LH-700 that I got used for little money. I was lucky, it was one of the good ones , but I confirm that they have a reputation for bad QC. I'd still encourage you to locate and try one (or a LH-600: same guitar, less bling). Despite my having graduated to a '38 Deluxe I will never let it go. It's a "go everywhere archtop" with great volume, tone and looks and as Steve said, slap a DeArmond on it and you have both acoustic tone and old school electric tone. Good pros gig with these.
- Whatever you do, try-before-you-buy or buy with a good return policy. As Steve said, the Loar has a huge neck & iffy QC. OTOH, buying very old instruments always entails some risks. And any archtop including Eastman is something of an acquired tastes coming from flat-tops: you gotta be sure you like what you get.

Other miscellaneous thoughts:
- I would not buy (or at least I would not pay premium prices for) vintage acoustic archtops other than Gibson and Epiphone. You tend to find weird or inconsistent specs, and less of a sure value. This isn't to say there aren't gems around, but it would require substantially more research.
- On the low end of the market, I will add that of the many pressed-top cheap archtops around (EXL-1, Epiphone Masterbilt, Gretsch New Yorker, Guild A-150) the only one that warmed my heart was a Guild A-150 Savoy. It's not comparable to a Loar in acoustic volume or timbre – it's just not an acoustic guitar in that sense. But it has a very normal C neck, if you prefer that, nice volume and sound, nice looks (in my view), and it comes already with a nice reissue DeArmond. If one pops up around you, go give it a check.

[rmp]

I've recently picked up a Godin 5th ave Kingpin II

Smaller body, more compact size, comfortable to play but kind of a chunky neck, Seems a D profile to me. but not too narrow at the nut.

the P90s are underwound, so they don't bark quite like a standard P90 will. I like this one and I think I'll prob. hang on to it.

I had an Epi Regent and Broadway, very nice guitars, sound good play nice, but a really narrow nut.

The Eastman archtops look impressive. Maybe Glenn Willow will check in, he has a really nice one. I think if I was going for one of the larger body/scale ones, that'd be the one I started hunting down.

[RLetson]

Seconding Steve DeRosa's detailed rundown. I am the quite undeserving caretaker of four examples of modern and classic archtops: the Eastman I mentioned upthread, plus a 1946 Epi Broadway (with a repro DeArmond 1100), a Loar 600 (retrofitted with an old Sekova DeArmond knockoff), and a Tom Crandall handbuilt (with a Lace Ultra Slim). (I also once had a lovely 1945 L-7 that I sold off because, as good as it was, I kept taking the Epi out to play, and that guitar deserved better.)

Each works quite well as an acoustic rhythm instrument, with the Eastman and the Crandall having the most "modern" voices--Tom had chord-melody in mind when he voiced his. The Epi, not surprisingly, has the best classic-big-band chunk. Plugged in, they're much more alike, at least to my aging ears, capable of that round, classic Fifties sound. (I suspect that the pickups are the crucial factors there.)

My hands are getting fussy about neck profile and width, but I find both the chunky Loar and the relatively slim/round Epi pretty manageable, and the Eastman's thoroughly modern neck gives me no pain at all in a two-hour session.

My late playing partner's primary non-rock electric guitar was a battered, probably 1950s ES-125. I don't know how much it might have been altered, but it had a really sweet jazz voice plugged in, and a very muted acoustic voice. But then, Dan strung it with flats, which always sound dead to me.

I have always started with acoustic voice, since pickups can be swapped endlessly, and each of my quartet offers something in that department that makes me want to keep it around. (I kinda wished I'd retained the L-7, but it really, really deserved to be played out as much as possible.)

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by radiofm74

...1931-1950 Epiphones are a fantastic value. For $5-7k you can get a Deluxe, i.e. a top-of-the-line guitar as good as any other archtop of the era...

$6500 will get you this solidly excellent-plus condition, 18" early-postwar Emperor (the Deluxe is a 17-incher) - along with the Gibson Super 400, D'Angelico New Yorker, and Stromberg Master 400 one of the "Holy Grail" instruments of the vintage archtop world:





https://www.archtop.com/ac_45emp_622.html

FWIW a script-logo Super 400N in comparable shape will run you well north of $20K - here's one in lesser condition posted on Reverb @ $19,500:

https://reverb.com/item/52105153-gib...00-1940-blonde

[tmont]

You folks have provided me with much to ponder, and I thank you.
It seems the Eastman is much favored if I hear you correctly. At least in my limited price range. Tom

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by tmont

...It seems the Eastman is much favored if I hear you correctly. At least in my limited price range...

It is, and not without justification - but many of us own/have owned good vintage archtops (I had a '46 Epiphone Blackstone and '47 Gibson L-7) and IME there really is no substitute in terms of materials, construction quality, or tone. Simply put, if there's any possibility of securing the bucks a good vintage instrument can be a lifetime investment: there's a finite supply (certain materials - large-size carving stock, old-growth highly-figured woods, species like Brazilian rosewood and Adirondack spruce - that were commonplace on the old stuff are now difficult or impossible to obtain), the construction techniques are all-but-dead for factory-produced guitars, and seven-plus-decade-old wood has a tonal vibe that's impossible to duplicate in a new instrument. As the above strictly-informational post illustrates, there are still some good Golden-Age pieces out there at reasonable prices: if you can, by all means do - if not, best of luck with your search...

[tmont]

so which do you folks recommend for a first time archtop:
1. Eastman AR805CE or
2. Godin 5th Avenue Kingpin?
Both appear to be highly regarded.
Tom

[RLetson]

As the comments above point out, those are two very different instruments with quite different virtues. The Eastman, as Steve DeRosa points out (and I second), is a pro-level guitar that works equally well in acoustic or electric mode, and if you're serious about archtoppery, it's well worth the price tag (about three times the Godin list).

The Kingpin, on the other hand, is optimized for electric playing--I've heard one in a jazz-combo environment and was impressed with the sound. But I would not want to play acoustic swing rhythm on one.

For a *first* archtop, and one that would be played plugged in, the Godin is a safe choice--affordable, more than adequate for electric playing, and (should jazzy stuff not prove to be one's long-term love), a low-risk purchase. But my personal choice for that category would be (and already is) a Loar 600 with an aftermarket pickup--though I realize that the chunky neck is not everybody's favorite. And the guitar I take out every week to sit in with a jazz combo is my Eastman. (The one I fly with to annual swing camp is the Loar.)

On edit: I see that the current 805 CE is no longer a proper acoustic archtop--the pickup and controls are set into the top. It's all-solid-carved, but that design choice is a deal-killer for me. The plain-jane, no-cutaway 805 is a proper acoustic guitar, but electrifying it requires adding a floating pickup, wiring, and a pickguard to mount controls. My Loar needed those, and adding them cost another several hundred. Worth it, though.

[tmont]

Originally Posted by RLetson

As the comments above point out, those are two very different instruments with quite different virtues. The Eastman, as Steve DeRosa points out (and I second), is a pro-level guitar that works equally well in acoustic or electric mode, and if you're serious about archtoppery, it's well worth the price tag (about three times the Godin list).

The Kingpin, on the other hand, is optimized for electric playing--I've heard one in a jazz-combo environment and was impressed with the sound. But I would not want to play acoustic swing rhythm on one.

For a *first* archtop, and one that would be played plugged in, the Godin is a safe choice--affordable, more than adequate for electric playing, and (should jazzy stuff not prove to be one's long-term love), a low-risk purchase. But my personal choice for that category would be (and already is) a Loar 600 with an aftermarket pickup--though I realize that the chunky neck is not everybody's favorite. And the guitar I take out every week to sit in with a jazz combo is my Eastman. (The one I fly with to annual swing camp is the Loar.)

On edit: I see that the current 805 CE is no longer a proper acoustic archtop--the pickup and controls are set into the top. It's all-solid-carved, but that design choice is a deal-killer for me. The plain-jane, no-cutaway 805 is a proper acoustic guitar, but electrifying it requires adding a floating pickup, wiring, and a pickguard to mount controls. My Loar needed those, and adding them cost another several hundred. Worth it, though.

You have pointed out one of the features of the Eastman I had not considered...
I wish I had one of each available in the area, but I cannot find either one anywhere. Some folks have a program where they let you try out the instrument and if you don't like it, you pay the shipping....maybe that is a good option. I may just settle on a non electric model. But thanks for your observations! If you gotta go through a minefield....follow somebody. Tom

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by tmont

You folks have provided me with much to ponder, and I thank you.
It seems the Eastman is much favored if I hear you correctly. At least in my limited price range. Tom

I'd be the dissenter here, if you're looking to play plugged in jazz, the 125 is the guitar, imho.

Eastman makes great guitars, but their tone aesthetic is not my bag.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by tmont

Exploring entering the archtop world....I currently own two Martins and an old Guild. I enjoy the 1 3/4 nut that both Martins have. Recently started playing some jazz and thus interest in adding an archtop.

I have two I am considering....
1. Eastman AR805CE and
2. Gibson ES-125
Two quite different guitars and I know the Gibson with not have the 1 3/4 nut. But I do like older guitars. My Guild is a 1970 vintage.

So I am asking your opinion on a first archtop.
If you gotta go thru a minefield, follow somebody.
Tom

Well both of these are electrics, so I can't speak about hem, but these are my archtops (all 1 & 3/4").