Mic comparisons

[TBman]

I got out my old trusty AT 2035 mics the other day and today I did a comparison with them and my two WA mics. Not to prove anything, just playing around. As far as my recording area goes, I now have 2 slightly smaller gobos behind the mics and I spread out my recording area a bit so the gobos aren't right on top of me or the mics.

What I found informative was that the AT mics needed less of a gain boost in post than the two WA mics. Not sure why. (I'm recording with a 32 bit Zoom F3 - all gain is adjusted in post).

Here's the two AT-2035 mics:


And a WA-14 on the left and a WA 47jr on the right:



Eventually I'll be using another tune in my little demos,

[alohachris]

OK Barry,

I finally nailed down the "wolf note" distortion culprit. It's the second F# note, @185Hz, played on the fourth string, at the fourth fret in standard guitar tuning.

It's the third note of the music you play & it distorts (in various degrees) throughout the song when you attack that F# note at the beginning of passages (a bit harder).

I don't know what tuning you used to play your lovely, emotive music in for this piece.

Listened to all your samples plus the mic comparison on my iMac with good speakers, my Bose movie system with great speakers, my AKG K240 Studio headphones, & my incredible, all-time-revealing custom Koa Daedalus K-803 monitors.

All systems revealed the same minor distortion of your stronger attack on that particular F# note.

KEEP USING THE SAME TUNE FOR COMPARISON'S SAKE!

As to the mic comparison. I've said some not so nice, but honest things about those AT 2035's you used to use. I've also had some words with some at AGF who think that Warm mic's - particularly the overrated "47" Series - are a great value. (they're nothing like 47's I've owned at all. Not even a hint). Great marketing attached to classic model numbers & a lower price sell that mic.

But in this comparison, your semi-retired AT2035's reveal much less distortion in the lower mid's than your two bassier, disparate 47 Warm's do. The 47's reveal much more distortion on that F# note & others (like E - 2nd fret, fourth string) also on other lower-mid's - on the first attack of a phrase. Heard it on every system I listened through - EQ all at up @12.

Just my opinion, but at 75 years old, my educated ears were tested again last week, & the doctor said my readings are exceptional for my age. Just minor diminished high frequencies for the old man here. So I can hear your "wolf notes" distortion clearly.

Room treatment will NOT get rid of these distortions alone. It's not the hum of your house either. Mic placement (back off & experiment - try 12-20" off the face) is the key. Afterall, your dedicated music space is now treated, right? Time to experiment & you can back way off from the instrument now. Also, use active EQ, back off a tad on your attack, & that will do the trick. Just notch 185Hz out of the part via EQ.

You're this close Barry. And your playing is revealing not just a song you just learned with the right notes, but all the emotional content of the music too - which is where the juice is for both player & listener. Bravo, my friend!

BARRY!

alohachris

PS: BTW, classical guitars (I made 16 & repaired hundreds) tend to develop buzzes for various reasons. The first place to look is at the tuning pegs. Every once in a while, tap the headstock to see if anything buzzes or is loose. Lightly tighten the tuner screws there if necessary.

Make sure that you cut off the string ends at the bridge so none are touching the top. Another buzz source.

And because the braces on classicals are so narrow, they can become loose too, from a hit or drop, even in its case. So tap the top at the lower bout occasionally too for buzzes. Enjoy all the mic experiments - try all the mic patterns, ORTF is great on guitar. - All the Best, Bah! -alohachris-

PPS: For future reference: Keep in mind that the onboard mic pre's on Zoom aint that great as your mic's get better & need the best. You're treated now, Barry, now it's on to defining & putting together the best complementary signal system you can. Begin to think of mic's as combinations of Mic's/Preamps. The combo differences are sometimes very audible. - -alohachris

[RodB]

Hi Barry,

I compared these to the previous examples and hear improvement, particularly with the AT2035's. With this track I can now enjoy your nice rendition of this tune. I still find the sound a bit 'brittle' for want of a better description - like many such issues it probably shows up because of a combination of things including the choice of mics/preamp combo combined with the particular guitar.

What about going further out with the mics now you have improved the acoustics as Chris suggests, also with a set-up with the mics off axis like ORTF or another near-coincident pair?

I have found a bit of this 'harsh' tendency on my cedar/walnut McIlroy when I have let the RH% drop too low, probably because it has so much overtones - I now keep it >50% (unlike my spruce tops that just get better with lower RH).

Regarding Chris’s comments about the attack on certain notes, I thought about how you are initiating the notes - slight friction on the wound strings maybe, are you using picks or nails? Nail/pick shape/ length, angle of attack perhaps?

Yes, I suggest you keep the same tune in your comparisons... what about an A/B with another guitar?

As an aside, something I do notice is your playing is much more deliberate, confident than it once was and musical, and deserves the effort you are putting in to optimise the sound.

Regards,

[TBman]

Originally Posted by alohachris

OK Barry,

I finally nailed down the "wolf note" distortion culprit. It's the second F# note, @185Hz, played on the fourth string, at the fourth fret in standard guitar tuning.

It's the third note of the music you play & it distorts (in various degrees) throughout the song when you attack that F# note at the beginning of passages (a bit harder).

I don't know what tuning you used to play your lovely, emotive music in for this piece.

Listened to all your samples plus the mic comparison on my iMac with good speakers, my Bose movie system with great speakers, my AKG K240 Studio headphones, & my incredible, all-time-revealing custom Koa Daedalus K-803 monitors.

All systems revealed the same minor distortion of your stronger attack on that particular F# note.

KEEP USING THE SAME TUNE FOR COMPARISON'S SAKE!

As to the mic comparison. I've said some not so nice, but honest things about those AT 2035's you used to use. I've also had some words with some at AGF who think that Warm mic's - particularly the overrated "47" Series - are a great value. (they're nothing like 47's I've owned at all. Not even a hint). Great marketing attached to classic model numbers & a lower price sell that mic.

But in this comparison, your semi-retired AT2035's reveal much less distortion in the lower mid's than your two bassier, disparate 47 Warm's do. The 47's reveal much more distortion on that F# note & others (like E - 2nd fret, fourth string) also on other lower-mid's - on the first attack of a phrase. Heard it on every system I listened through - EQ all at up @12.

Just my opinion, but at 75 years old, my educated ears were tested again last week, & the doctor said my readings are exceptional for my age. Just minor diminished high frequencies for the old man here. So I can hear your "wolf notes" distortion clearly.

Room treatment will NOT get rid of these distortions alone. It's not the hum of your house either. Mic placement (back off & experiment - try 12-20" off the face) is the key. Afterall, your dedicated music space is now treated, right? Time to experiment & you can back way off from the instrument now. Also, use active EQ, back off a tad on your attack, & that will do the trick. Just notch 185Hz out of the part via EQ.

You're this close Barry. And your playing is revealing not just a song you just learned with the right notes, but all the emotional content of the music too - which is where the juice is for both player & listener. Bravo, my friend!

BARRY!

alohachris

PS: BTW, classical guitars (I made 16 & repaired hundreds) tend to develop buzzes for various reasons. The first place to look is at the tuning pegs. Every once in a while, tap the headstock to see if anything buzzes or is loose. Lightly tighten the tuner screws there if necessary.

Make sure that you cut off the string ends at the bridge so none are touching the top. Another buzz source.

And because the braces on classicals are so narrow, they can become loose too, from a hit or drop, even in its case. So tap the top at the lower bout occasionally too for buzzes. Enjoy all the mic experiments - try all the mic patterns, ORTF is great on guitar. - All the Best, Bah! -alohachris-

PPS: For future reference: Keep in mind that the onboard mic pre's on Zoom aint that great as your mic's get better & need the best. You're treated now, Barry, now it's on to defining & putting together the best complementary signal system you can. Begin to think of mic's as combinations of Mic's/Preamps. The combo differences are sometimes very audible. - -alohachris

Ok, thanks for nailing that down Chris! I appreciate you taking the time to go into such detail!

[TBman]

Originally Posted by RodB

Hi Barry,

I compared these to the previous examples and hear improvement, particularly with the AT2035's. With this track I can now enjoy your nice rendition of this tune. I still find the sound a bit 'brittle' for want of a better description - like many such issues it probably shows up because of a combination of things including the choice of mics/preamp combo combined with the particular guitar.

What about going further out with the mics now you have improved the acoustics as Chris suggests, also with a set-up with the mics off axis like ORTF or another near-coincident pair?

I have found a bit of this 'harsh' tendency on my cedar/walnut McIlroy when I have let the RH% drop too low, probably because it has so much overtones - I now keep it >50% (unlike my spruce tops that just get better with lower RH).

Regarding Chris’s comments about the attack on certain notes, I thought about how you are initiating the notes - slight friction on the wound strings maybe, are you using picks or nails? Nail/pick shape/ length, angle of attack perhaps?

Yes, I suggest you keep the same tune in your comparisons... what about an A/B with another guitar?

As an aside, something I do notice is your playing is much more deliberate, confident than it once was and musical, and deserves the effort you are putting in to optimise the sound.

Regards,

Hi Rod, yes I'm going to move the mics back a bit more and also try the ORTF setup with some SDC mics. I could do this with a different guitar as well. I'm using a Blue Chip JDL thumbpick and Kalena plastic finger picks. Thanks for taking the time to listen and comment!

Now I probably have to start matching my mics to what guitar is being used - The AT-2035 with my Furch and probably the Pellerin as well. The WA mics would probably be better with my Avalon and McIlroy as they have a mellower tone to a degree.

[RodB]

I look forward to hearing your next examples then.

I already find myself humming this tune - you must be hearing it your sleep by new!