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  #1  
Old 01-07-2018, 08:56 PM
Rchtop Rchtop is offline
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Default Gibson Problem - 1994ish?

Can anyone shed some light on a construction problem at the Bozeman plant around 1994-5? My local GC has a late '93 J45 with issues - offered to me for cheap as a project.

In an interview with Tony P., Ren Ferguson referred to a change made by a plant manager at that time that caused major problems. He did not elaborate. The top bracing is having problems on this orphan, and I'm wondering if they did something like using a poor glue.

Anyone have the skinny? I'd love to rescue this one, but would like to know what I'm getting into.

Cheers, Alan

Late '30's L-30
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  #2  
Old 01-07-2018, 10:33 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Alan, I was aware there were some problems at the Bozeman plant around then, but not the specific reasons for them. I do know someone who's very knowledgeable about the subject, so I'll send him an email and include the link to this thread. He's a very busy guy, but perhaps with luck he'll be able to chime in on this thread and tell us.

If he knows about the exact causes. The corporate culture of Gibson as a company is not as open as some of their competitors, so he might not know.


Wade Hampton Miller
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Old 01-07-2018, 11:36 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Okay, Alan, my buddy emailed me right back but would rather not post in this thread himself. Here's a lightly edited version of his reply:

"Some are okay and some are crap, Wade.

"Ren told me numerous times that the factory was under a lot of pressure to maintain a certain production level, and so they cranked out a lot of product. Sadly much of it came back from dealers with build issues.

"I bought a '92 or '93 J-200Jr-12 string many years ago,and called Ren about it first. He said "if it has lasted this long without folding up, it's a good one." I bought it.

"During that time, Ren described a visit by the Nashville headquarters brass, and he said that in order to prepare for the visit, they had stuffed return-for-repair guitars in closets and under stairways, to keep them out of sight for the brass' visit.

"So -- yes -- quality did suffer then. Part of this was due to the manager of the time. And they had obligations to produce all these Centennial models for 1994 too.

"I guess if the thing has not structurally fallen apart then that's a good sign. But he should check the braces, the neck set and especially be happy that he is okay with the sound. Some are good or even great, but many if not most are pretty bland."



So you already know that the guitar has problems with the braces, Alan. Check the neckset geometry as well. Braces are one thing, but dealing with a neck reset is a much more difficult repair and considerably more aggravating, besides.

Short version: if all it needs is to have some braces reglued, that's not necessarily a major obstacle. But if the neckset is bad or headed that way, I sure wouldn't fool with it.

Hope this helps.


Wade Hampton Miller

Last edited by Wade Hampton; 01-08-2018 at 09:28 PM. Reason: correcting a couple of typos
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:18 AM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rchtop View Post
Can anyone shed some light on a construction problem at the Bozeman plant around 1994-5? My local GC has a late '93 J45 with issues - offered to me for cheap as a project.

In an interview with Tony P., Ren Ferguson referred to a change made by a plant manager at that time that caused major problems. He did not elaborate. The top bracing is having problems on this orphan, and I'm wondering if they did something like using a poor glue.

Anyone have the skinny? I'd love to rescue this one, but would like to know what I'm getting into.

Cheers, Alan

Late '30's L-30
I was working at Sam Ash 48th, NYC during this time, and something, clearly, had changed at Gibson.

I had, literally, dozens of Gibson flat tops, with saddles that were MINIMALLY 1/4" above the slot, fully humidified (we had an expensive central system and closed area), and the guitars were still buzzing.

It was a neck/body geometry issue. The 'tale' I recall hearing was that Ren had been 'booted upstairs' (put into a management position), and the manufacturing floor went to hell in a hand basket.

It was a tough era for selling Gibson product.

Regards,
Howard Emerson
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:54 AM
zombywoof zombywoof is offline
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There was some Gibson strangeness in the late 1980s and early 1990s when Bozeman first went into business with paddle neck joints and Fullperplast finishes. They were gone though by 1992.

I had always heard there were problems around 1994 resulting from over production for the Gibson Centennial. Only first hand experience I had was my wife owned a '94 J-100XTRA when we first met. No build issues that I could see but possible the worst sounding Gibson I had ever played. It left you wondering "where is the bass"?
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:46 AM
Athens Athens is offline
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I don't have any specific info on this, but it's been my experience that Gibson's have always been inconsistent.

ALWAYS play the one you're thinking of buying and have it closely inspected by a competent luthier before the sale.

I know that's going to upset the Gibson faithful, but they made some great guitars and some clunkers.

You just have to weed through them to get to the good ones.
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Old 01-08-2018, 01:40 PM
jtaylor996 jtaylor996 is offline
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My '93 J60 is a great instrument, but it does have the finish prebinder issue. It's particularly bad where the finish has delaminated around the G string tuner hole on the headstock.
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  #8  
Old 01-08-2018, 09:07 PM
Rchtop Rchtop is offline
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Default Thanks to all

Thanks for the replies, folks. This J45 has too much relief in the neck, lots of saddle showing and still the strings are too low. In fact, they fret out completely on the higher strings by the 10th fret or so. The top did not look very sunken to me - the GC tech thinks regluing a loose brace will bring it back to proper shape. I have my doubts - if it was that easy, they would do it.

This one also has terrible blistering in the finish on the back of the neck and a bit on the back of the lower bout. Tech blames a strap left on in the case.

To top it off, the guitar does not sound so good to my ear. If anyone wants a project for $850, I can put you in touch...
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:11 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rchtop View Post
Thanks for the replies, folks. This J45 has too much relief in the neck, lots of saddle showing and still the strings are too low. In fact, they fret out completely on the higher strings by the 10th fret or so. The top did not look very sunken to me - the GC tech thinks regluing a loose brace will bring it back to proper shape. I have my doubts - if it was that easy, they would do it.
Right. "And once this baby gets fully broken in, it's going to sound TERRIFIC!!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rchtop View Post
This one also has terrible blistering in the finish on the back of the neck and a bit on the back of the lower bout. Tech blames a strap left on in the case.
That makes sense, Vinyl and nitrocellulose lacquer finishes are mortal enemies, kind of like a king cobra and a mongoose meeting up....



Rikki Tikki Tavi Meets The King Cobra

Rchtop concluded:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rchtop View Post
To top it off, the guitar does not sound so good to my ear. If anyone wants a project for $850, I can put you in touch...
Only $850?!? Golly, what a bargain!

Naw, you did the right thing. I would pass on that one, too.


Wade Hampton Miller
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  #10  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:55 PM
3woodengulls 3woodengulls is offline
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I have a 1991 hummingbird that sounds and plays great! Anyone know if this was before all the problems?
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  #11  
Old 01-09-2018, 10:57 PM
Steadfastly Steadfastly is offline
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It would be better to save up and get a good used one for $1200.00 or a bit more.
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  #12  
Old 01-09-2018, 11:16 PM
pickitPaul pickitPaul is offline
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Originally Posted by 3woodengulls View Post
I have a 1991 hummingbird that sounds and plays great! Anyone know if this was before all the problems?
Your Hummingbird will have a paddle neck set & it is from a great era, just as the plant is starting to get up to speed, and they were wanting to get noticed again to sell the new Bozeman models. They were built without CNC methods, not as much production compared to the mid 90's or now = more individual attention.
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  #13  
Old 01-10-2018, 04:12 AM
rgregg48 rgregg48 is offline
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Obviously, Henry Junk-O-Wicz has plan, and its working.
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caved top, j-45, j45, loose braces

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