Poor Man's Pendulum Audio Module?

[schinckley]

I currently have a James May Ultra Tonic pickup installed in my Larrivee L-05 (year 2000). It is a great sounding pickup but I am going to add a mic as well. I plan to use the mic only on the highs. I want to avoid drilling another hole in my guitar. The Ultra Tonic has a stereo jack and I'd like to use that to carry power to the mic and receive the signals from the pickup and the mic. (I don't want a battery in the guitar - I can't seem to let go of images of leaking battery juices all over the inside of my guitar.) I know I could go the easy route and get a K&K Trinity mic upgrade with the preamp and all, but what's the fun of that? As I've researched various solutions, I really like the the idea of the Pendulum Audio Modules that hang off the jack. Availability and price is an issue, however. I've been doing a fair amount of internet searching and can't find much in the way of similar products. If anyone knows of other products that provide a similar function, please tell.

One option that may work is the Schatten Designs MicroPre-2m. Does anyone have experience with this? I was thinking I could use their "Black Box" volume control and replace the innards with the MicroPre-2M and appropriate other items (stereo plug, stereo jack, 9v or other battery, etc.).

If there is a way to power such a box via Phantom from the mixer, that would be way cool, but not required. Putting a battery in the DIY module wouldn't be too bad. I also don't need any controls on this box. In fact, I would prefer no controls. I want to process each audio signal separately at the mixer (Mackie DL16s).

Any thoughts or experience would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Doug Young]

PUTW at least used to make a "power plug" that was very much like the Pendulum module. I think I have one somewhere. I don't recall if it powered a mic, tho it seems like a mod would be possible.

Personally, I'd not go this route - I've used both the PUTW and the Pendulum, and they tend to have issues. They're a bit heavy, and tend to pull (especially with a chord plugged in) and lose contact with the jack. I'd just use a floor preamp. The Sunnaudio MS-2 is a nice small one, and of course the Grace Felix. There are others. The Raven Labs preamps are nice, small, and come up used now and then for $200 or so. The DTar Solstice is another that is bigger, but can be found for less money than the new ones.

I know you said "poor man's", but I think the Pendulum module was $500 alone, and the PUTW was 2-300? I forget.

You could just put a battery in a small box like the Schatten to power the mic and pass everything thru, but you'll still want a DI for the pickup before the mixer. It'd all be nice and clean with simply a good dual-channel preamp.

[schinckley]

Thanks for the reply, Doug!

So, the whole idea of the preamp module on the jack is to avoid having anything else in between the guitar and the mixer. If I I’m going to have something else (on the floor or a rack) then the jack mounted preamp is redundant. Might as well just run a stereo signal to a DTar, K&K Trinity preamp, the old Rane AP13, etc., which all provide the bias power the mic needs and allow for separate signal processing. But then I have to plug into the preamp, then plug the preamp into the mixer, fiddle with the knobs on the preamp, fiddle with the settings of the mixer.....

The Mackie DL series mixers give me parametric eq (as well as gate and compression) on each channel, so anything outboard or prior to that is redundant.

What I want (although wants can change ) is to be able to just plug in my guitar, recall the appropriate settings on the mixer (including a subgroup mix for the guitar) and go.

What I DON’T want is multiple places to fiddle with the sound - like a preamp AND on the mixer. I fear I would just fiddle and fiddle and tweak and tweak and then never start the gig or practice.

So the idea of the jack mounted preamp is really that it is just a cord that happens to power the mic.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by schinckley

So the idea of the jack mounted preamp is really that it is just a cord that happens to power the mic.

A battery inside a modified Black box should be able to do that, and maybe that'd be light enough to not have issues. I did use the Pendulum module for a while, along with a mod that let me plug it directly into the PA - 2 channels. That was nice, all I basically had was volume and balance between mic and pickup, and I'd let the sound guy deal with anything else. But like I say, I did have issues with the sound cutting in and out sometimes as the box and cable weighed on the jack.

For what it's worth, I don't find the need to endlessly tweak. I've read lots of posts by people who need massive parametric EQ and change it throughout the night, and I don't get it. I pick guitars, pickups, preamps that sound good flat, send them to a PA that sounds good flat, and I'm done. Maybe you tweak the PA for the room a bit, maybe you occasionally decide you want a tad more or less bass on the preamp EQ. It may be that I play listening rooms mostly, and am not trying to push the sound just up to the edge of feedback. I have lots of EQ available, I use a QSC Touchmix, in addition to having quite a bit of EQ on my preamp setup. I just don't generally need it. So my point is you don't have to turn all those knobs just because they're there! :-)

[guitarman68]

I completely second Doug Young's suggestions, have exactly the same experience.
I too use a Touchmix 12 mixer, EQ flat on my guitar inputs, only EQ needed is HPF on the internal microphone. That's what I "fiddle in" on my floor preamp (Grace Felix / SunnAudio MS-2). Pickup/internal mic mixed about 50/50 - done.

I used to use a Pendulum SPS-1 - great piece of gear. But more to carry compared to floor preamp with built in solo boost ...
The Pendulum pickup/mic module ist great, and I still own one (sorry, not for sale). But I never would use it on guitars plugged directly to the board. Why ? Because my experience taught me there is always always high pass filtering required when it comes to internal mics in acoustic guitars. You might say the mixer has fixed HPF at 80 Hz. But that's far too low for an internal mic inside a guitar. And because pickup and mic require different treatment you want to divide the signal the preamp module gives you. That's what a TRS-cable in combination with blender/preamp does.
So I would not go this route, too and recommend a decent external preamp like Doug suggested.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by guitarman68

. But I never would use it on guitars plugged directly to the board. Why ? Because my experience taught me there is always always high pass filtering required when it comes to internal mics in acoustic guitars. You might say the mixer has fixed HPF at 80 Hz. But that's far too low for an internal mic inside a guitar. And because pickup and mic require different treatment you want to divide the signal the preamp module gives you. .

The way I used the Pendulum module alone sent each signal separately to the board, so the mic could be EQd separately. Of course, that meant relying on a sound person to do it much of the time, and meant educating them on internal mics, etc. Plus you never knew if the board would have the right EQ, unless I was using my own. Felix or the MS-2 have the right controls to deal with the mic in exactly the right way, making it all much easier.

[MrErikJ]

To Doug's point, Pick-up The World used to make one called the Volt-Jack or Power Jack and it ran on 9 volt. It doesn't exist anymore but David Enke's new company, Open to Source Sensors, makes a similar setup and he can customize it to run on phantom for you, should you not want the 9volt battery.

I liked the idea of the endpin module and had a Pendulum for awhile with a Pickup/Pickup Module. I sold it just based on the size, complexity, and the fact that Pendulum doesn't support it anymore. Personally, I really like the idea of the endpin module/or any phantom powered preamp, but I'm one of the few in that category.

[schinckley]

MrErikJ - thanks for the heads up on Open to Source Sensors! In all my googling I had not come across them. On their website they have a “Stereo Power Plug.” There is no picture, and the description only states it’s handmade and high quality, but there is a picture of a “Mono Power Plug,” which has the form of a jack mounted preamp module. So, the stereo version may be exactly what I’m after. I’ve sent an email through their website asking for more info about the product. It’s listed at $200, which is close to a ballpark $150 a DIY version may end up costing. If it does what I need, I might just go with it. I am interested in how much it weighs, given Doug’s experience with the Pendulum.

As far as outboard dual-source preamps - I just don’t see their usefulness if I can do the signal processing and “blending” at the mixer. A little preamp pedal with mute, boost, a tuner, etc., makes sense because it’s adding something, but a preamp that just gives you basic eq and blends the signal seems redundant. Am I missing something that these things do (besides providing mic power)? If I were plugging into all kinds of different mixers, then it makes sense. But I just play little solo gigs here and there and have my own mixer/PA so I plug into the same channels every time and know what I’m getting. I also hear a lot of people on the forum say, “I used to have X gear, but got tired of hauling it around and plugging it in. I wanted something simpler.” What’s simpler than a cord (with a box on the end)?

And Doug, you’re right. It’s probably good to just say “good enough” and get on with playing. I’ll get there. Just as soon as I get all my gear dialed in!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by schinckley

MrErikJ - thanks for the heads up on Open to Source Sensors!

...

I am interested in how much it weighs, given Doug’s experience with the Pendulum.

Open to Source Sensors is David Enke's new company after he got divorced and his wife continued with Pickup-the-world, so there's a lot of similarity.

I found my PUTW stereo power plug, it's not heavy, probably most of the weight is the 9 volt battery, tho of course you get get weight of the cord pulling on it, which is just a tad different due to the angle than plugging in directly. Mine does not have phantom for a mic.

IMG_3247.jpg

As far as outboard dual-source preamps - I just don’t see their usefulness if I can do the signal processing and “blending” at the mixer. A little preamp pedal with mute, boost, a tuner, etc., makes sense because it’s adding something, but a preamp that just gives you basic eq and blends the signal seems redundant.

I'd get a preamp that has useful functions! Mute, boost is all helpful. My setup adds IRs (via the effects loop) to make the pickup sound better, blends the mic in a way that produces stereo. Has switchable impedance for better matching to passive pickups. Has a high pass filter that makes the mic sound better, and that many boards don't have. Has a separate high pass filter on the pickup channel, to dial out the "thump" that many SBTs have, but that requires a different cutoff frequency than the mic. Has an effects loop that lets me patch in a higher-quality reverb than most mixers, even lets me add a looper. Lets me route a signal to an amp for stage monitoring and a DI to the PA for front of house. Even tho I'm not a heavy EQ user, a good preamp designed for acoustic guitar probably will have EQ that is better tailored to your guitar than a generic mixing board. A good preamp is basically your main control/dispatch point. And they don't have to be big, the one I use is 5x6 inches, basically the footprint of 2 typical stopboxes. Fits in most guitar cases, or gig bag pockets.

[schinckley]

Doug, thanks for posting the pic of the PUTW Power plug module. The on/off switch seems useful. I’ve watched your video of your setup with the Sunnaudio/Two Notes/Ventris. Super cool setup and sounds amazing. Way more than I want to spend, though. The preamp alone costs more than I paid for my mixer.

I'm still not convinced on the idea of a separate preamp. Again, it just seems like more (redundant) gear to setup. When I go play somewhere, I'm the sound man, roadie, and tech - setup all the speakers, run the cables, etc. The idea of just plugging straight into the mixer just seems so much more appealing than having to also setup a preamp, pedals, and the associated cables.

Anyone familiar with David Wilcox (the American one)? He’s one of my favorite artists and I’ve always liked his live sound. He uses at least 4 different signals for his guitar. (YouTube link.) I think I’m falling down the rabbit hole - just put a Dimarzio Black Angel magnetic pickup in and love the low end (no SBT thump). Mixed with the Ultra Tonic, I like the sound. But needs a mic for the highs.

Frankly, this is all kind of ridiculous for what I do - I just play for fun. But if it’s for fun, why not have fun with it, right?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by schinckley

Doug, thanks for posting the pic of the PUTW Power plug module. The on/off switch seems useful. I’ve watched your video of your setup with the Sunnaudio/Two Notes/Ventris. Super cool setup and sounds amazing. Way more than I want to spend, though. The preamp alone costs more than I paid for my mixer.

To me, sound quality is what matters. $1 spent on something that doesn't sound good is a dollar wasted, and boy have I wasted lots of money on "cheap" solutions that didn't work well. I have surely spent thousands of dollars, $50 here, $100 there at a time on stuff that ultimately didn't work. I've kind of learned my lesson to at least try to buy "right" once instead of wrong a dozen times.... It only took most of my life and a ton of money to learn that, sadly :-)

The idea of just plugging straight into the mixer just seems so much more appealing than having to also setup a preamp, pedals, and the associated cables.

I get the appeal, just in my experience it doesn't work well. I've never gotten a good sound with plugging directly into a mixer, even if it had high impedance inputs. Also, are you always using your sound system? I like using mine, I know it will sound good, but I probably use it less than 10% of the time. Places tend to have their own PAs and you can't count on whether it will work well - part of the reason everyone I know carries at least a simple preamp or DI is to shield themselves from what they have to plug into.

There is a pickup that works well direct into a mixer - the Trance Phantom M. Goes into a standard XLR mic input, designed for that, and works great. It's very cool to just plug it directly into the mixer and have it work without even a battery in the guitar.

Incidentally, I have tried another solution along the lines of what you are thinking of. I just had an adaptor made, plugs into a mixer's XLR 48 volt phantom powered input, and converts to 9 volts bias power for a mic with a 1/4 inch female input. My idea, similar to yours, I guess, was to be able to use a TRS to TS Y cable, plug the pickup directly into the board, and the mic into the adaptor cable, then into the board. The mic part worked fine, but the pickup never sounded good into any board I've tried. There are also other gotchas, I've run into boards at venues that didn't support phantom power, even! oops, you never know what you'll run into.

Anyone familiar with David Wilcox (the American one)? He’s one of my favorite artists and I’ve always liked his live sound. He uses at least 4 different signals for his guitar. (YouTube link.) I think I’m falling down the rabbit hole - just put a Dimarzio Black Angel magnetic pickup in and love the low end (no SBT thump). Mixed with the Ultra Tonic, I like the sound. But needs a mic for the highs.

David's come up here a number of times lately. That's the other extreme - two Pendulum SPS-1s, $5-6K tied up just in the preamps! 12-bands of parametric EQ to figure out how to set! I've heard him live several times. He sounded good, but not noticeably better than others who played with him who had very simple setups.

Others who have been going to extremes are some of the Candyrat crowd. Mike Dawes gets an incredible sound, but with a virtual spaceship's worth of effects, an entire "snake" coming out of his guitar, etc. Can't begin to guess how much money he has tied up in his setup.


Part of the challenge for you is that you're trying to go dual source with a roll-your-own system that includes a mic. That automatically adds some complexity (and cost...). If you had a simple 1-source pickup, you could have a cheap DI or a simple preamp like a PADI and be done. If you went with a commercial dual source system like the Wavelength Duo, you'd have the mic handled by the onboard preamp, and would probably have better luck plugging directly into a mixer, since the preamp onboard buffers the pickup.

There are simpler (cheaper) preamps than what I use. The Raven Labs PMB-I or II are really nice, small, and come up used for a few hundred $. I still have 2 of those myself that I used to use all the time (sitting in a box, now, just because I've found a better solution, but they do work nicely for dual source). The Baggs MixPro clips on your belt, and might be a decent compromise in simplicity. It doesn't have separate outputs, tho, and doesn't EQ the mic. I have also used a Red-Eye twin, nice and simple, and as many people here on AGF will swear, does something nice for the sound. Main thing missing is a high-pass filter for the mic, but I compensate by boosting the treble on the mic, while turning down the volume. Works reasonably well. DTar Solstice, Headway, and so on.

Anyway, just my advice.

[sdelsolray]

The older PUTW Stereo Power Plug is a dual mono circuit (i.e., two channels and no blending). The tip channel has a preamp circuit with a gain control and an output control and runs on an internal 9v battery. The ring channel is a straight through circuit (i.e., no preamp, no controls) and does not use the internal battery. It works well with a passive pickup and an active pickup, or a passive pickup and an internal mic. The internal mic would still need to receive bias power from the next unit in the downstream signal chain. K&K makes a 48v three-wire phantom power to 9v two-wire bias power converter box (it's quite small). TRS male to TRS male cable to a Y-Cable, one going to a mixer channel line input, the second going into the K&K converter box with an XLR cable going from that to a second mixer channels XLR mic input withphantom power on. Convoluted, but it certainly works.

The Pendulum modules (there are a few different ones) are more sophisticated. They use 48v phantom power directly to either (i) power the module's internal preamp(s) (for all modules) and (ii) convert the phantom power to 9v bias power for an internal mic (for the pickup/mic modules).

[schinckley]

Thanks for the info sdelsolray!

Guitarman68, thanks for your reply. I actually don’t want to blend the signal at the jack. I want separate signals going to the board and then eq/blend them at the board.

From I what hear people saying, here and on other threads, is that there’s something a preamp does for the signal that makes it sound better than directly into the mixer. I want to know what. I think I’m going to start a separate thread asking this question from the community. I want a more technical answer than “it sounds better.”

So, here’s an update on my thinking: simplifying the plug-in procedure is the focus of this whole exercise. Given the repeated advice to “just get a preamp,” I’ve thought I could get a Rane Ap13, which is rack-mountable, as is my mixer. With the Rane and mixer mounted in a rack, the cables from the Rane to the mixer just stay plugged in. Then, when I setup the PA, all I have to do is plug a stereo cable from the guitar to the Rane and recall the appropriate settings on the mixer. The only downside is having a big box to lug around, but it would only require a 4 space rack. Not too bad.

One question. How long a cable is acceptable for these dual-mono-with-bias-power cable runs?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by schinckley

From I what hear people saying, here and on other threads, is that there’s something a preamp does for the signal that makes it sound better than directly into the mixer. I want to know what. I think I’m going to start a separate thread asking this question from the community. I want a more technical answer than “it sounds better.”

It's difficult to answer technically without knowing specifics of your setup. But in general there are the following issues to deal with when plugging into a mixer, especially with a passive pickup:

Impedance: Passive pickups want to see a high input impedance. "high" is relative, and I've used mixers that claimed high impedance inputs that still didn't sound right. (and by "not right", I mean like all bass, or ice-pick thin, all treble). Impedance affects the frequency response and may subtly affect other things.

Noise and signal loss. High impedances come with a cost. Longer guitar cables (long is relative) interact with high impedances to introduce signal loss and frequency loss, as the capacitance of your cable interacts with the high impedance. Longer unbalanced cables also pick up noise. So the solution is to run a very short high impedance guitar chord to a buffering stage (preamp or DI) as soon as possible, then run a low-impedance balanced cable to the mixer.

Input sensitivity - ability to provide the right signal level to the mixer's input.

The answer to these issues is to have a buffer (a preamp) as close to the pickup as possible. It's why virtually all commercial systems (pre-installed in guitars) are active. Manufacturers want to be sure you don't come back to them and say the pickup is bad because you're not plugging into the right thing. Pickups are quite sensitive to the first stage they see, so guitar makers put the preamp as close as they can - inside the guitar. So the "cable" (inside the guitar) is short, the signal is stronger to overcome noise, they have the right impedance for the pickup at the first stage, and usually the output impedance is lower coming out of the guitar's built-in preamp.

With a passive after-market system (which I also use), you still want to have a preamp as your first stage, and as close to the guitar as is reasonable, then feed a low impedance, balanced cable to the mixer. That reduces noise, provides the impedance matching and avoids frequency response issues. Acoustic amps are usually ok - they're usually designed with the right input specs, tho I've seen some that are a bit questionable for passive pickups (which in the grand scheme of things are rare). But mixers generally are not a good match. Yours could be - you never know. But unless you can guarantee you will never want to plug into anything else, it's a good idea to have either a preamp or a DI - it's protection to ensure that your pickup sounds its best wherever you plug in.

There are people here who could certainly give you a more detailed electrical engineering view of the situation, especially if they have access to the circuits for your mixer, if that's what you're looking for. But the most effective thing would be for you to try it. Order a preamp from a place that will let you return it, or borrow one. Try it out and see for yourself if it makes a difference. Maybe you won't notice any difference, everyone's taste, ears, and needs are different. But as I've said, I don't know of a guitarist who doesn't use a DI or a preamp when plugging into a PA - that's because they've tried it and found it to be essential, not because they just like spending money.

[Doug Young]

BTW the way, a Rane is a fine choice - rather dated, but was a good preamp in its day, and will power your mic if I recall. I'd keep your guitar cable short - 10 feet. With this kind of setup, it sounds like you never plan to play anywhere without your rack? I sure got tired of lugging a rack around. A small DI or preamp that fits in your guitar case is a lot lighter load.