If piezos are so bad (for several people). . .

[jonfields45]

Factories use UST piezos because the result is acceptable to most buyers, basically bullet proof in the hands of the end user, and very consistent.

SBTs can have guitar to guitar variation that they don't want to hassle with. Better sounding USTs like B-band were rejected because they did not install and work right every time.

When I first retired Dick Boak suggested I interview for Martin's R&D director position. I did not go any further than meeting with their head of HR, but I do remember what we discussed: string development plans and problems with pickups (not guitar design which is a marketing function :~).

I am still amazed that the relatively fragile Fishman Matrix has held onto Martin's production. A Sonitone or Element is much more robust.

[cdkrugjr]

Hillsong's latest live album, they use the old-school '80s piezo sound for a few of the songs.

It's definitely a "thing," even if tech's moved on since then.

[Nymuso]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

I stil love the B-bands
. . . . . they are no longer available.

And that’s the problem. Instead of yet another (expensive) variation of a pick or a capo, I’d like to see this return to the market.

[Perchman]

I’ve got an Element VTC UST on my J35 and JJB 330 SBT on my D55, both “piezo”. IMO, the Element run through my Fire Eye DI sounds really good. Really good. The “quack” isn’t nearly as prevalent than when running it straight into the board. I think it sounds better than the JJB 330 SBT system. UST’s are very useful and can sound excellent when used in the right way.

[Guitarplayer_PR]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I assume the OP meant an undersaddle pickup. People say "piezo", meaning UST, all the time, even here on AGF, not realizing that K&Ks, Dazzo, Trance, etc, are also "piezo" technology.

I'd say most people have a UST because that's what came in the guitar. That changed a little when Taylor went to a mag+SBT system (ES1), and now the ES2 is a "beside the saddle" variation of a UST. Many guitarists who don't spend their time reading AGF and tweaking their setups don't even know what pickup is in their guitar.

You're right. Since I'm not "American" (although I'm an American citizen) and my native tongue is Spanish, some technical terms in English (even if "piezo" is not an English word per se) are more difficult to use properly. Yes, I'm specifically talking about USTs

The thing is for the last 10 years or so, the UST guitars I've owned came with them from the factory. The exception would be the LR Baggs Anthem SL, which I put it in one of my Taylor guitars because the ES1 in it died. I set it about 60/40 in favor of the mic because I really needed the UST in the tone. And still do. And the other UST guitars came from only two brands (Ovation and Takamine) and the've served me very well all these years.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayer_PR

You're right. Since I'm not "American" (although I'm an American citizen) and my native tongue is Spanish, some technical terms in English (even if "piezo" is not an English word per se) are more difficult to use properly. Yes, I'm specifically talking about USTs

The thing is for the last 10 years or so, the UST guitars I've owned came with them from the factory. The exception would be the LR Baggs Anthem SL, which I put it in one of my Taylor guitars because the ES1 in it died. I set it about 60/40 in favor of the mic because I really needed the UST in the tone. And still do. And the other UST guitars came from only two brands (Ovation and Takamine) and the've served me very well all these years.

The two other examples you mention, Ovation and Takamine are sort of special cases. Ovation basically invented (or at least pioneered) the UST and it's been a core part of their identify ever since they came out with the first guitar with a UST (and marketed it as sounding more "natural" than previous solutions). Takamine has a proprietary system that integrates the pickup into the saddle/guitar build in a way that no aftermarket pickup can really do, and is known for sounding good plugged in, so thats a key appeal of the brand. Their pickup is quite different from most after-market USTs.

With the Anthem, you really can't eliminate the UST, because the mic portion only covers 250Hz and up.

But the basic answer to your question is that USTs are easy to install, predictable, generally invisible, and they work well enough that most people who buy guitars are happy with them. Many people here on AGF are trying to get to the next level of tone, and don't mind doing custom installs, needing to use a special preamp with the right input impedance, etc, to do better. Manufacturers of mass market instruments need to know that their guitars will just work, and USTs do that. It's like a serious car buff saying to most of us, "how can you drive a Camry when it doesn't even have a custom carburator in it?"

[Br1ck]

While a Taylor is far from my favorite plugged in tone, I'll have to say they usually sound ok. Just plug them in and go. Really fine for the casual player. Only two gripes, firstly how many show up with dead batteries ( hint, they have a little led on the preamp board, easily seen from the sound hole, and when it goes out, change the battery). One guy had his Taylor for ten years and didn't know this. The other thing is people can't help twiddling their knobs. Instead of asking for more sound in the monitors, they turn their volume up. But Taylors always do fine. A lot can be said for that.

Undersaddle pickups often get put in cheaper guitars with cheaper electronics then played by people inexperienced with amplified sound.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Nymuso

And that’s the problem. Instead of yet another (expensive) variation of a pick or a capo, I’d like to see this return to the market.

you and I both!

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Factories use UST piezos because the result is acceptable to most buyers, basically bullet proof in the hands of the end user, and very consistent.

SBTs can have guitar to guitar variation that they don't want to hassle with. Better sounding USTs like B-band were rejected because they did not install and work right every time.

When I first retired Dick Boak suggested I interview for Martin's R&D director position. I did not go any further than meeting with their head of HR, but I do remember what we discussed: string development plans and problems with pickups (not guitar design which is a marketing function :~).

I am still amazed that the relatively fragile Fishman Matrix has held onto Martin's production. A Sonitone or Element is much more robust.

I have different opinion about the robust-ness of the element. I can't count the number of times I've picked up Element equipped new off the shelf guitars that exhibited string balance problems with the B and E strings. You rarely see that with a Matrix.

[Marshall]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

First it is cheap to make
Second it Is reliable
Third it cuts Through the mix
Fourth it is somehow balanced
Firth it is feedback resistant
At last it requires few modifications on the guitar

It just does not sound like your guitar acoustically... and that bugs some of us (including me).

Yeah, but; - add a ToneDexter to the signal chain and you've got a GREAT sound. I've hated piezo sound for ever. Piezo's are cheap. But I bought a Fishman Sonotone piezo for $17. Installed it. Very good with feedback. And the ToneDexter ($400) makes it sound like my guitar.

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Marshall

Yeah, but; - add a ToneDexter to the signal chain and you've got a GREAT sound. I've hated piezo sound for ever. Piezo's are cheap. But I bought a Fishman Sonotone piezo for $17. Installed it. Very good with feedback. And the ToneDexter ($400) makes it sound like my guitar.

Exactly. I do prefer bridge plate pickups (K&K, JJB) to USTs, however. A UST can affect acoustic tone (I know this from experience, and I know some people will disagree) while a bridge plate pickup will have little, if any effect.

[Petty1818]

I think one thing to consider is that if you look at the majority of professional musicians out there, it’s actually quite hard to find many that are as anal as we are on agf about plugged in tone. I started thinking about acoustic players, or at least musicians who play acoustic here and there at shows and the majority of them play UST pickups and/or some variation of a soundhole pickup. Some use Aura and some use the anthem but many still rely on tones that we would consider to be unnatural. Even those that use the Anthem or Aura tend to have fairly quacky tones and rely more on the piezo than the mic or image. This is probably one reason why so many manufacturers still put piezo systems into their guitars.

[Guitarplayer_PR]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I think one thing to consider is that if you look at the majority of professional musicians out there, it’s actually quite hard to find many that are as anal as we are on agf about plugged in tone. I started thinking about acoustic players, or at least musicians who play acoustic here and there at shows and the majority of them play UST pickups and/or some variation of a soundhole pickup. Some use Aura and some use the anthem but many still rely on tones that we would consider to be unnatural. Even those that use the Anthem or Aura tend to have fairly quacky tones and rely more on the piezo than the mic or image. This is probably one reason why so many manufacturers still put piezo systems into their guitars.

There's a lesson we need to learn from successful electric guitarists: your best tone will sound like crap at a live gig. If we play (I certainly do) in a band, that wonderful tone we cherish so much, provided by boutique guitars, ultra expensive preamps and amplification systems, would get drowned in two seconds. And it'd be totally worthless. On the other hand, that "quacky" tone, in the hands of a good soundperson and the correct tool (for me, the ol' LR Baggs Para DI still works wonders and the PA only makes it better) can sound much less quacky and very natural and, because it would cut through the mix, would be awesome.

[phcorrigan]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I think one thing to consider is that if you look at the majority of professional musicians out there, it’s actually quite hard to find many that are as anal as we are on agf about plugged in tone.

I would say that a lot of professional musicians don't agree with you, including these ToneDexter endorsers: https://audiosprockets.com/artists/

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

I would say that a lot of professional musicians don't agree with you, including these ToneDexter endorsers: https://audiosprockets.com/artists/

Just to clarify my point, I realize there are people out there who are trying to achieve a more natural tone. They are much like the members here on agf. I don’t believe I said that no one uses systems like the tonedexter. I am just saying that if you look at the majority of players out there, UST and magnetic pickups are still the most popular option. If you really sit down and think about a lot of the acoustic players out there, most are not using the most natural set up.

To be fair as well, many of those Tonedexter users listed look to be violin, banjo, cello etc players and many I have never heard of. That adds to my point as well. It seems as though the more underground players are looking for a better tone but if you go back to the OP, those musicians are not going to keep big manufacturers in business so piezo systems are still the best option.