Build Thread: LeGeyt CLM Brazilian/Red Spruce

[jackaroo]

Moderator edit--I got this guitar from Jack about a year ago and since the photobucket meltdown had to reconstruct the thread using the new imgur links. Hopefully the thread still makes sense.

Last February I took a trip up to Boston from Brooklyn. I happen to own a very nice 00-18 from 1927. I was mainly there to see vintage Martin guru TJ Thompson about a bar fret job. I figured I'd stop by The Music Emporium while I was in the region to play some of the guitars from the amazing selection of small builders they have represented in their inventory.

Sadly, TME was to be closed when I was available...but they were were very kind and actually had Andy Cambria (who was opening the shop that day) come an hour early to let me in order to have a run at the racks. So nice... like a kid in a candy store right? So, I tried every guitar in the place that I thought would be my thing, most didn't impress me enough to merit any real consideration. But it was nice to try a bunch of guitars from new builders.

Most of my time is spent playing a blend of flatpick/hybrid picking. Lots of bluegrass, blues, rag time, old style music and the occasional gypsy jazz tune. I am not a "fingerstyle" guitarist. In fact I tend find that term a little annoying...that's just a technique not a style. Anyways...TME is also stocked to the gills with a bunch of these "fingerstyle" guitars...I had always ignored them, as that's a style I never played. Beautiful as they were, I was told by many in the know they would not my thing at all. I never tried them, I never had the shot before so I figured I'd give it a whirl.

Turns out the info I was given was pretty much right. None of these guitars worked well for my approach to the instrument, had the tone I like, or the power I need in most of my musical settings.

However there was one guitar that really had something special going on. It looked really different, and was the type of thing I'd never pick up expecting to be so great. The guitar was Burton LeGeyts mahogany and Swiss spruce CLM. It was pretty decked out with lots of bells, whistles and build techniques that this old school vintage guitar lover would usually scoff at as snake oil. But here's the thing...it sounded great and played really well.

So I was kind of in a pickle...here I am having to revamp all my prejudices at 9 am on a Sunday!

All joking aside, it was a great morning and the guitar made an impression on me. So much so that while driving home I called Burton and left a message on his answering machine about the TME guitar and that I'd like to talk to him about potentially commissioning a build with him ASAP.

Well, it took a little while to get things squared away...but Burton and I eventually found out that we had some similar opinions about guitars, what we liked and didn't like. I decided I'd take the leap, and get on the wait list for a simpler version of the TME guitar but out of rosewood. I have 10+ guitars and not a rosewood one in the bunch, so I wasn't going to get the mahogany one from TME as much as its haunting tone was the thing that started this ball rolling.

A few months later I came across a stash of old growth brazilian rosewood...at least that's what I was told. It apparently was underwater for many years and was salvaged and imported. Whatever...I bought a bunch of it thinking I'd be dumb not to. It did look lovely. Burton mentioned that if the wood passed muster (he was sure it would) that he'd like to have a go at my guitar with the new BRW. I picked a set with some figure, as I planned on using the straightest stuff I have for future traditional style builds and we were off to the races.

Well, the deposit has been paid, and the wood shipped and things are under way for my first custom built guitar. I always get a real kick out of the AGF build threads, and I wanted to do one myself so I hope you enjoy taking the journey with me here!

Lastly I'd like to say that Burton has been just super cool and easygoing throughout the whole process. Perhaps it's just that we've got a good chemistry, but I'd wager he's like this with everyone. Funny and low key with a really refined and original design aesthetic, somehow he's always thinking about function as much as form. I hope he'll chime in and offer up explanations for some of these pictures, because some of this is a mystery to me!

Best and thanks to everyone here for sharing their build stories...I hope you like mine.

Here's the specs:

Shape: CLM shape slightly deeper (app. 4 3/8 at tail). No cutaway
B&S: supplied BRW
Soundboard: AAA Red Spruce
Neck: Spanish Cedar stained in my normal fashion
FB: Madagascar Rosewood
Bridge: TBD, some rosewood, likely BRW or African blackwood
Headplate: slothead, figured BRW slothead with visible lamination in slots
Rosette: custom herringbone, maple and rosewood
Binding: BRW to blend with B&S (top, back, soundhole)
FB and headstock binding: African blackwood to match neck stain
Purfling: Black/Maple/Rosewood/Maple/Black used for top, fingerboard, and headstock
Side lines: single maple line between side and binding (top and bottom? only between side and top binding?)
Endgraft: Creme with rosewood and maple lines surrounding
Fretwire: your spec nickel wire
FB dots: side only, 1/16" Creme
Nut, Saddle: WAHI
Bridge, end pins and tuner buttons: Creme, polished with no inlay
Tuning machines: Engraved brass Waverly
Truss rod: Carbon fiber only, no adjustment
Finish: Full french polish

[CoolerKing]

Nice! BRZ reminds me of wenge. Recognize your handle from UMGF, good to see you here!

[clicktone]

Oooh, this is gonna be fun... Thx for the post!

[justonwo]

Off to a great start. Thanks for sharing!

[mikealpine]

I was noticing the Wenge similarities too. Very nice!! Thanks for posting!

[quentinjazz]

It's always a pleasure to see a new build from Burton!

[jackaroo]

After a little time away from my guitar, it looks like Burton is back at it!

[mcduffnw]

Here's the specs:

Truss rod: Carbon fiber only, no adjustment

Hi jackaroo...

Yikes...a leap of faith indeed on the carbon fiber neck truss rod.

I always worry about this aspect of the builds I see where the luthier uses a non adjustable "truss" rod.

I know carbon fiber is tough stuff...but...I always think about time and pressure, and the wily ways of wood and it's tendency to move over time...especially when medium gauge strings have been used for long periods of time on the guitar.

I've just seen so many necks on non adjustable truss rod guitars, where they have "moved", and what could have been easily mitigated by a small truss rod adjustment has become a major repair project.

I am intrigued by the luthiers ideas behind using the carbon fiber non adjust rod?

Best Regards
duff

[jackaroo]

Hey Duff,

You're entitled to your ideas about this stuff. Allow me to share mine...

When a neck is made that can't move, it doesn't need adjusting. It's right, so...no need to change it. Those that can be adjusted are inherently less stable...they have to allow for flex to happen within the channel where the adjustable rod is. This leads folks with adj necks to have to adjust them, so they think that ALL necks need adjusting when that simply isn't true. The rigid neck can't be moved...therefore it doesn't move.

My favorite guitars tonally have non adj neck support. I'm not sure why, but it's a fact pattern I've observed. So when asked about what I wanted...I figured I'd go that route. Burton is very confident, and so am I.

When you say you've seen so many guitars, what guitars? Really? So many? Or was it one? Did someone wise to world of compression refretting have a look at it? I'm serious, please explain in detail your experience. I'd love to hear it before it's too late.

IMO...

Do it right the first time, and there's no need for a second pass. If things get out of whack in terms of relief, a little compression fretting works to alleviate any issues. Barring a piece of wood, that decides to go nuts after being carved into a neck shape...I see no problems. And a neck made from that same wood wouldn't be able to be fixed with an adjustable rod. So where's the benefit?

I don't think it's the neck that moves in the non adj guitars. Perhaps the adj necks are weak and tend to buckle a bit under tension thus changing relief... It's been my experience that its not the neck that changes so much as the body that starts to deform under the pressure of the string pull. Then again the observed long term history of the steel string guitar is basically limited to the Martin design. So any flaws in that design become seen as an inevitability. Burton's neck block has greater surface area coupled with the top and the sides...basically eliminating the likelihood or the typical deformation we see on the tops that causes the need for neck sets.

Humidity causes the top to rise and fall...that changes action. Two saddles is the cure. One low RH the ofthe when it gets sticky.

So if the neck doesn't move, the top doesn't fold in, and efforts are made to keep the guitar in a regulated ( in terms of RH) environment..I see little need to have an adj neck support system.

My 1927 00-18 has an ebony bar! And it's been perfect for nearly 90 years. My 37 d-18 has a t bar...that neck it rock solid. I like not having another thing to fuss about. It might take a little more effort at first to dial in the guitar, but once it's right, it's nice to just play.

Martin didn't use adj rods for 100 years, so clearly it can be done...in fact I'd say that it's the way it's most often been done in the history of our instrument (flat top steel string).

Please do share the info you have either here or pm if you don't want to name names.

Thanks,

J

[Burton LeGeyt]

Duff, I'll chime in here too-
As you can see I didn't have to push too hard to make the neck non adjustable

I've built a good number of guitars this way and they have all done well. Like Jack, I do notice a difference in a non adjustable neck and I prefer it. I would say for me it is as much about the feel of the neck as it is about the tone, but both are affected.

Obviously it takes the right customer to feel confident ordering a guitar like this and Jack and I are on the same page here. I do feel it is possible, and proven in many of Martin's successful examples, to make a very successful non adjustable neck on a steel string guitar. I choose to use CF instead of steel, or other stiffening agents, and have lately been making my own laminates to go in the neck. This allows me to alter everything- the fiber direction, the laminate thickness, even the basic shape to maximize the strength where I want it. IN practice it is fairly simple and the insert I have been working with is similar to another available product (the Dragonplate tube) and is a C shaped insert that extends deep into the neck.

And here, in the neck. This can be used in conjunction with a truss rod when required, although I consider it somewhat redundant. In Jack's guitar I will likely cap the insert with more CF to strengthen it further as I don't need to work inside it at all.



The insert has proven to be an improvement over the other methods of CF reinforcement I have used, which were already serving very well. I do have confidence in it and am glad for the opportunity to build like this, in a style I prefer.

I understand people's reluctance about it, obviously including the adjustable rod makes it easier down the road if something goes wrong. I'm not naive enough to guarantee that absolutely nothing will go wrong but I do feel good enough about it to publicly declare it as my preference.

[Brock Poling]

That's a stunning set of Brazilian. I have serious wood envy.

[jackaroo]

[Island Mfg.]

That's a brilliant heel block design.

[CoolerKing]

It really is well designed. The amount of work that goes into the neck and heel blocks alone, which basically aren't visible, is impressive.

[jackaroo]

Burton? Have you heard that TJ is doing CF t bars to support necks? He's in your (no pun intended) neck of the woods. Maybe we should ask him?

J