Recording acoustic guitar nightmare

[pshih1979]

https://soundcloud.com/user-52521886...o-giants-track

https://soundcloud.com/user-52521886...ad-a-car-track



Hello I am a fingerstyle guitar player, I'm doing a lot of daniel padim covers
I'm recording using a Tascam DR40 with external mic akg p170 SDC

playing it back it sounds lifeless and sterile.
and when I try to add color like reverb/ compression/ even EQ
it just sounds more sterile and muted and more boxy.

I ve tried audio interfaces and gotten worse results

I record it to tascam then use an SD card reader to my laptop and then upload to BANDLAB DAW and add EQ, reverb, compression

on playback it just sounds dead and lifeless

[pshih1979]

I DON"T KNOW HOW THESE YOUTUBERS DO IT WITH FINGERSTYLE RECORDING. BUT THEY SOUND MAGNITUDES BETTER THAN I DO AND THEY ARE USING COMPARABLE EQUIPMENT ALL BUDGET MICS. YET THEY ARE ABLE TO GET VERY LIVELY , VERY RICH SOUND WHEN RECORDING AND THEY ARE USING THEIR ROOM ALSO.

I HAVE NO ANSWERS AND HAVE BEEN TO END OF THE ROPES OF RECORDING.
THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING I AM DOING INCORRECTLY.

GAIN AND PHANTOM POWER ARE ALL ON.
THE SIGNAL GOING IN AND ON THE TASCAM ARE PRETTY GOOD

at about -6 db so its hot. mics about 9 inches away from 12 th fret
tried different XLR cables different recording routes, preamps, external preamps yet the result is always the same. DEAD BOXY AND VERY THIN SOUNDING PLAYBACK.

[Doug Young]

Peter, I know we've had lots of discussions about this in the past. Here's what I'd suggest:

A likely culprit is your room acoustics. Bad acoustics can make everything sound distant and indistinct. An analogy is a flashlight in the daylight compared to night time. At night, the flashlight is bright, focused. In the daylight, it's barely visible and whimpy. In bad acoustics, your sound is like that flashlight in the bright daylight, and will be harsh, thin, distant, no matter what mics, etc you use. You may think your room sounds fine, our ears tend to adjust and sort of "dial out" the sound of the room. The mics won't.

Second, while getting your recording chops together, play something *much* simpler while dialing in your sound. Keep it short. Play a C chord, strum (once!), or play a simple pima arpeggio. That's it! Nothing more. You want to work on one thing at a time - focus on the recorded sound, not playing the most complicated piece you can. Really listen, first of all, to your guitar. Are you getting as much sound out of it as you want? The guitar has to sound good in the room first. Be really critical and honest about what you hear. If the tone of the raw guitar doesn't knock you out, neither will the recording.

Then check out the recording. That C chord should sound beautiful, big, full, rich. If it doesn't, try different rooms, different mic placements, different strings, a different attack on the guitar. Try playing louder, softer, and so on. Be sure to listen on lots of different systems - how does it sound at home, in the car, thru earbuds, on the phone? Don't worry about reverb or any other stuff until the raw recording sounds really nice. Once you can play a C chord and capture a tone that sounds great, you're ready to start recording something real. If it all sounds good, you know the recording setup works, and all that's left is to nail your performance, including producing that same rich sound that you got while playing something simple.

[Doug Young]

BTW, on your poll, I don't think it matters all that much, either can work, and I use both. I just recorded a tune tonight, and as I often do, recorded with both at once, then chose based on what sounded best to me for the song, guitar, and probably my mood, etc. My opinion might change from day to day :-) but tonight, I chose the LDs:

https://dougyoungguitar.com/track/3227284/planxty-irwin

On the other hand, here's the same guitar with a pair of SDs recorded a few weeks ago, and those seem to work ok, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8tuQhPNuCk

[RodB]

In addition to following Doug's advice I would also encourage you not to use any effects until you have at least a sound that is pleasing. Many of us don't use compression on acoustic instrumentals and any reverb or EQ is usually best used sparingly, if at all.

A single mic will also not provide depth to the sound image, but I too suspect the room acoustics are the greatest culprit. The advantage of using a recorder (as I do) is that you can move around the room, house or even try outside when no wind

There is a lot of advice on the web on positioning a mic at or near the 12th fret but I would encourage you to try different positions. It might well be good for accompaniment or for one of a stereo pair but alone unlikely to sound like the guitar you hear. Just avoid directly in front of and close to the sound hole.

In your second post you talk about different routes, preamps etc. You should be able to take the track(s) direct from the SD into the DAW as you describe in the 1st post without degrading the sound.

So as Doug says at first keep it simple - playing, transferring and processing.

I didn't vote as the type of mic is not the issue. I use both and have to listen hard to hear any difference when I have set up both at the same time.

[12barBill]

This thread may be better suited for the RECORD section.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by pshih1979

I DON"T KNOW HOW THESE YOUTUBERS DO IT WITH FINGERSTYLE RECORDING. BUT THEY SOUND MAGNITUDES BETTER THAN I DO AND THEY ARE USING COMPARABLE EQUIPMENT ALL BUDGET MICS. YET THEY ARE ABLE TO GET VERY LIVELY , VERY RICH SOUND WHEN RECORDING AND THEY ARE USING THEIR ROOM ALSO.

I HAVE NO ANSWERS AND HAVE BEEN TO END OF THE ROPES OF RECORDING.
THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING I AM DOING INCORRECTLY.

GAIN AND PHANTOM POWER ARE ALL ON.
THE SIGNAL GOING IN AND ON THE TASCAM ARE PRETTY GOOD

at about -6 db so its hot. mics about 9 inches away from 12 th fret
tried different XLR cables different recording routes, preamps, external preamps yet the result is always the same. DEAD BOXY AND VERY THIN SOUNDING PLAYBACK.

The thing that stands out in your recording example is it mostly sounds like the room and not the guitar. Fixing that will totally change the listening perspective.

You are recording at 24 bits I hope.

If you're recording with a single P170 you should try shifting your mic down to the neck-body juncture. Over the board mics will give you more string sound, but you need a mic over the body to get more meat in your sound.

[Glennwillow]

I don't think your recordings sound bad at all. I am listening through my very good Massdrop HD6XX headphones so for me no room acoustics are involved.

I do think it helps to use two good microphones and to record in stereo. That way you get one mic at about the 12th fret and a second mic off the face of the guitar down by the bass bout. The two together combined with the natural phasing of two mics at two different locations adds a lot of character when listening back in stereo.

Also a little reverb can work wonders.

It is true that just about every room could benefit from acoustic treatment, but of course, it costs money. It's probably worth it, because your guitar playing sounds good!

- Glenn

[Bob Womack]

Yeah, but seeing your Soundcloud channel, I bet your dog loves you.

Bob

[keith.rogers]

Have you spent some time just recording with the DR40's built in mics? They probably do just a fine job, and you can spend a lot of time just getting the positioning right, experimenting with your place in the room, move to a different room, etc. Use a camera tripod or get a 1/4"-20 adapter for your mic stand and work *just* on that until you have a good, clean guitar recording.

This is all probably old news, but make sure to record to WAV format, 24-bit, and 44.1 or 48kHz. Then, before you drop the [built-in mic recorded] stereo track into the DAW, I'd split it to two MONO tracks in Audacity, and export those singly as mono WAV files. It will give you an easier time to balance the levels and also control the stereo width, which (IMO) you do not likely want panned as wide as the stereo file would place them. EQ, reverb, compression should all be minimal if you get a good performance & recording.

There's a guy, Joshua [Lee] Turner, who started out over a decade ago doing recordings with a lowly Zoom H2 in his bedroom. He has used that indoors and outdoors, and always produced great videos. Here's an early one (11 years ago):

https://youtu.be/6BsFGq4vMt0


And a later one (3 years ago):

https://youtu.be/yIDu9GosRi0

[Brent Hahn]

To illustrate how much the room(s) can matter, here's something I did back at the start of Covid when I had waaaay too much time on my hands. The vocal and rhythm guitar were done live to video (aka my iPhone 5) and the phone was about 3 feet away, but it works because the room is my wife's cluttered hellhole of a workspace, and very acoustically dead. The percussion stuff was all recorded in my very acoustically-live kitchen with an SM58, and the harmony vocal, uke and single-string guitar were in the doorway between my mixing room and a fairly live hallway. Location, location, location! :-)

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

To illustrate how much the room(s) can matter, here's something I did back at the start of Covid when I had waaaay too much time on my hands. The vocal and rhythm guitar were done live to video (aka my iPhone 5) and the phone was about 3 feet away, but it works because the room is my wife's cluttered hellhole of a workspace, and very acoustically dead. The percussion stuff was all recorded in my very acoustically-live kitchen with an SM58, and the harmony vocal, uke and single-string guitar were in the doorway between my mixing room and a fairly live hallway. Location, location, location! :-)

That's a very interesting perspective.

I have been listening to the "My take on Music Recording" podcasts by Doug Fearn and he has a very relatable podcast entitled "Recording In Improvised Spaces" that provides an alternative to the idea that nothing can be acceptable unless you "treat" the space.

[Brent Hahn]

Idiosyncratic recording spaces are one thing; a mixing environment is something else again.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

The thing that stands out in your recording example is it mostly sounds like the room and not the guitar. Fixing that will totally change the listening perspective.

I agree with Rudy. The second track makes it a bit more evident than the first, but you're getting some nasty reflections. You either need to find a location better suited for recording, or employ some form of room treatment to cut down those reflections.

I'd suggest taking a look at the stickied thread at the top of this subforum. It's titled:
AGF MEMBERS GEAR MASTERLIST with RECOMMENDED TUTORIAL VIDEOS & PODCASTS

Go to Post #16 and you'll find video tutorial sections on room treatment, recording acoustic guitar, and more.

The quickest and easiest way to better recordings is room treatment in some form. It doesn't need to be permanent. Movable bass traps can be built fairly cheaply. Just 2-3 of those in front of you as you record can make a world of difference, as the first video in the Room Treatment section demonstrates. That really should be your next move. Even great gear can't eliminate the problems of a bad recording space.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by pshih1979

mics about 9 inches away from 12 th fret
on playback it just sounds dead and lifeless

First and foremost I would listen to the great suggestions already made. Doug's advice on Room acoustics have proven many times to be so true. I love his explanation by using a Flashlight in a dark room versus a bright room. Makes lots of sense doesn't it?

I am also a novice and was dealing with some of the problems you mentioned. I thought to myself, my guitar sounds lifeless even with excellent microphones.

You are an excellent player using lots of dynamics. The harder you play, the more dynamics you use, the more you will hear all the parts of the guitar resonating.

+ You will most definitely have to improve your room acoustics...but also try moving your mics a bit further back. That way you will capture more of the Guitar's Entire body sound. Maybe even out to 18 inches or more. I do like close micing. I believe there is an intimacy with that. But lately I have come to discover with larger dynamics there are problems that can occur with too close a mic. As I have been taught here on AGF by Doug and others...one or two inches can make quick a difference.

There is also a possibility that you are experiencing Phasing between your two mics. That will make the sound a bit thin as well.

Lastly, and sadly, for dynamic players as yourself, high quality microphones do make a difference. I have more invested in my recording equipment that my guitars! Makes me mad and laugh at the same time! ha ha...but that is what it takes to record guitar in the state we wish to hear it back.