ToneDexter vs Baggs VoicePrint ?

[James May]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Thanks for that important detail, James.

Is it correct that one will get 100% of the anti-feedback notch's cut potential with the character knob at 12 noon (CH0)? If that's the case, a noon character knob setting would provide the driest sounding signal that the user can get without sacrificing some of the anti-feedback notch's cut potential.

On the other hand, 40% of the anti-feedback notch's cut potential (by rotating the anti-feedback notch fully clockwise for a 40% wet signal) may be enough of a cut (or more than enough) to do the job with a 40% wavemap/60% dry signal blend.

Correct on both questions.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Frankly, and going against the tide, and given that I have a ToneDexter and a Fishman Aura Spectrum (and I've had all versions of the Aura onboard and pedals), and haven't used either in two years while playing only at home, I prefer the amplified tone of a Dazzo, a Trance Amulet, an Ovation, an LR Baggs Element, a Taylor ES2, and the Takamine Palathetic transducer systems without the IR stuff added into the mix. If needed, just add a little bass and subtract a little mid-range, and all these systems to me sound usable without the addition of something else in the mix. If we have to talk IR and best-sounding tone with IR enhancement, let me say that my long-gone Ovation Adamas 2087 NWT with VIP-5 Preamp (onboard Aura Images) sounded the best of any IR-enhanced guitar I've yet to hear.

I've been feeling the same way. I've been using my K&Ks with basic analog preamps and have been enjoying it. IR sounds great, but I am not playing to audiences right now and don't want the hassle when I rehearse for eventual opening up.

[Marty C]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I've been feeling the same way. I've been using my K&Ks with basic analog preamps and have been enjoying it. IR sounds great, but I am not playing to audiences right now and don't want the hassle when I rehearse for eventual opening up.

Agreed. I spent too much time in the last 6 months twiddling knobs as I worked constantly to tweak my IR settings. It has been a fun process but, in the end it seems my Taylor ES2 sounds best through my analog mixer.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Marty C

Agreed. I spent too much time in the last 6 months twiddling knobs as I worked constantly to tweak my IR settings. It has been a fun process but, in the end it seems my Taylor ES2 sounds best through my analog mixer.

I was going to say something pithy. But, I think "yup" sums it up.

Although, I have my eye on one of the new Sunn Audio stage DI-2 preamps with impedance and mid frequency controls. ;-)

[SpruceTop]

I'm going to revisit my ToneDexter and use my Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina LCM to hear what kind of WaveMaps I can generate with that mic positioned somewhere 18 inches or so away from the guitar.

Whenever training a guitar/pickup/Shure SM81 combination with a ToneDexter it's magical when I hear the ongoing training session in my headphones kick in with a wonderfully full and resonant tone only to have what I thought sounded great end up sounding tubby in a recorded passage when using the resulting WaveMap. I think the secret to getting a usable WaveMap is not only the mic's direction but to get the microphone a good 18 inches or more away to get a nice crisp and full WaveMap with no tubbiness, especially when training large-bodied guitars.

The nice thing that a Fishman Aura Spectrum has going for it is that when using Fishman-created Aura Images, they've already placed the mic in the best position for the Aura Image generation to sound clean and resonant when using an Aura Image for the guitar model you're playing. Of course, the Aura Image being used isn't maximized for your particular guitar because it wasn't used to generate the Aura Image but generally, it'll sound good. In my experience with onboard- and pedal-based Aura preamps a ribbon-mic Aura Image always sounds the best for my playing style. Oh No! Does this mean that now I'll feel compelled to buy a ribbon mic to include in training my ToneDexter?

[jennconducts]

I was an early adopter of ToneDexter. I've used it constantly since it's inception. In fact, I have two of them, because I never went to be without it if one goes down. But being a curious person, I ordered a VP when they first became available, thinking I might like it even better, right? I also like the Baggs folks (I was also a super early adopter of the Anthem.)

In my home office/studio, I found the difference between the two in regard to sound quality to be minimal. Both sound great, MUCH better IMHO than a straight preamp/DI.

Recently I took them both to our 400 seat campus theater, which has an excellent Meyer Sound set up with big line arrays, and the acoustics in the room are great. I helped design the room and have performed in it as guitarist, conductor, and brass player dozens of times.

To MY ears, the ToneDexter edged out the VP. Note that my standard for this is not just sounding "good" (they both sounded GREAT), but how close they come to sounding like my guitar miced. In the case of the TD, I used both my existing wave maps, and wave maps that I made on the spot with a variety of excellent high-end mics that the theater owns. I listened to my playing through those mics and also made wave maps with them.

Again, this is obviously my opinion alone, but for me, the small difference was enough to decidedly stay with the TD.

My VP will be for sale if anyone is interested. It's an excellent product.

Jenn

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

In my experience with onboard- and pedal-based Aura preamps a ribbon-mic Aura Image always sounds the best for my playing style. Oh No! Does this mean that now I'll feel compelled to buy a ribbon mic to include in training my ToneDexter?

Worth a try, everyone's result may vary. I've tried a couple of ribbons for training and the result tended to be too dark for my taste - I think I posted some examples back when TD first came out. I've been very happy with just a SD condenser 8-10 inches away at the neck/body joint. Pretty much just works every time. I don't use ToneDexter for recording, tho. It certainly beats a pickup in that application, but it doesn't beat recording with a pair of good mics. If you like ribbons, I'd just record with them!

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Worth a try, everyone's result may vary. I've tried a couple of ribbons for training and the result tended to be too dark for my taste - I think I posted some examples back when TD first came out. I've been very happy with just a SD condenser 8-10 inches away at the neck/body joint. Pretty much just works every time. I don't use ToneDexter for recording, tho. It certainly beats a pickup in that application, but it doesn't beat recording with a pair of good mics. If you like ribbons, I'd just record with them!

Thanks, Doug, I think you just saved me a thousand bucks!

Regarding my Shure SM81, I've always used it as is right out of the box with the factory flat EQ settings in place. Perhaps, switching the EQ dial to the bass roll-off position would help eliminate the tubbiness of tone I've gotten in previous WaveMaps? I'm thinking that doing that and trying more mic locations and distances may yield better WaveMaps.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by jennconducts

I was an early adopter of ToneDexter. I've used it constantly since it's inception. In fact, I have two of them, because I never went to be without it if one goes down. But being a curious person, I ordered a VP when they first became available, thinking I might like it even better, right? I also like the Baggs folks (I was also a super early adopter of the Anthem.)

In my home office/studio, I found the difference between the two in regard to sound quality to be minimal. Both sound great, MUCH better IMHO than a straight preamp/DI.

Recently I took them both to our 400 seat campus theater, which has an excellent Meyer Sound set up with big line arrays, and the acoustics in the room are great. I helped design the room and have performed in it as guitarist, conductor, and brass player dozens of times.

To MY ears, the ToneDexter edged out the VP. Note that my standard for this is not just sounding "good" (they both sounded GREAT), but how close they come to sounding like my guitar miced. In the case of the TD, I used both my existing wave maps, and wave maps that I made on the spot with a variety of excellent high-end mics that the theater owns. I listened to my playing through those mics and also made wave maps with them.

Again, this is obviously my opinion alone, but for me, the small difference was enough to decidedly stay with the TD.

My VP will be for sale if anyone is interested. It's an excellent product.

Jenn

Thanks, Jenn, you've helped renew my interest in further experimentation with my ToneDexter that's been sitting idle in its box for over two years. I do think the ToneDexter is a marvelous device and has a lot of potential for players taking the time to get a resulting WaveMap tone to sound the way they want their amplified guitar to sound.

P.S. How is your SoloAmp holding up as I seem to remember you got one several years ago?

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Thanks, Jenn, you've helped renew my interest in further experimentation with my ToneDexter that's been sitting idle in its box for over two years. I do think the ToneDexter is a marvelous device and has a lot of potential for players taking the time to get a resulting WaveMap tone to sound the way they want their amplified guitar to sound.

P.S. How is your SoloAmp holding up as I seem to remember you got one several years ago?

If your TD hasn't been out of the box in two years, I'd think it would at least be worth a shot to install the version 2.0 firmware and use that version's "variable smart feedback reduction" (as James May calls it) to reduce the tubbiness in your TD recordings.

The folks who record with mics will often tell you that certain guitars record better than others. Its a common comment that smaller guitars with a more even tone tend to record better than the bassier big box guitars. And of course, post production processing like EQ adjustments, and the special kind of compression which the Session DI applies, are often used to polish mic recordings.

In any event, it may be worth a try to use version 2.0's variable smart feedback reduction to get less tubby sounding TD recordings. I'm thinking that the smart feedback reduction might be thought of as a "virtual guitar shrinker" in the way it can be used to reduce a guitar's dominant low end resonances.

[AeroUSA]

I’m currently on vacation from IR’s. What I found is that I was deep into creating them and the ToneDexter had the most mic like sound but it would also have some undesirable ringing frequencies that I could sometimes remove with external EQ (and sometimes could not). Sometimes these were also in the room mic but more so and the IR was never as good as the mic.

With the VPDI it’s more of a pickup enhancer and I was wanting more options (Baggs say they are coming in a future app update).

Long story short I got frustrated and have been using microphones, the Cole Clark, Anthem or Acoustasonic.

If I am live streaming then a mic often makes sense and when playing live I like the punchiness of a pickup.

I will get back into it the next time a firmware update is released.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by jennconducts

I was an early adopter of ToneDexter. I've used it constantly since it's inception. In fact, I have two of them, because I never went to be without it if one goes down. But being a curious person, I ordered a VP when they first became available, thinking I might like it even better, right? I also like the Baggs folks (I was also a super early adopter of the Anthem.)

In my home office/studio, I found the difference between the two in regard to sound quality to be minimal. Both sound great, MUCH better IMHO than a straight preamp/DI.

Recently I took them both to our 400 seat campus theater, which has an excellent Meyer Sound set up with big line arrays, and the acoustics in the room are great. I helped design the room and have performed in it as guitarist, conductor, and brass player dozens of times.

To MY ears, the ToneDexter edged out the VP. Note that my standard for this is not just sounding "good" (they both sounded GREAT), but how close they come to sounding like my guitar miced. In the case of the TD, I used both my existing wave maps, and wave maps that I made on the spot with a variety of excellent high-end mics that the theater owns. I listened to my playing through those mics and also made wave maps with them.

Again, this is obviously my opinion alone, but for me, the small difference was enough to decidedly stay with the TD.

My VP will be for sale if anyone is interested. It's an excellent product.

Jenn

Awesome, thanks for that! Are you still using the Anthem, or have you moved on to another pickup? Just curious what you use the TD and VP with.

I think for me, I am a bit over trying to capture the most realistic tone. I just want the device that will be the easiest to dial in live. My hope is that the VP will be a bit more plug and play but maybe that's wishful thinking!

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

I’m currently on vacation from IR’s. What I found is that I was deep into creating them and the ToneDexter had the most mic like sound but it would also have some undesirable ringing frequencies that I could sometimes remove with external EQ (and sometimes could not). Sometimes these were also in the room mic but more so and the IR was never as good as the mic.

With the VPDI it’s more of a pickup enhancer and I was wanting more options (Baggs say they are coming in a future app update).

Long story short I got frustrated and have been using microphones, the Cole Clark, Anthem or Acoustasonic.

If I am live streaming then a mic often makes sense and when playing live I like the punchiness of a pickup.

I will get back into it the next time a firmware update is released.

I find the same thing. I love the concept of IR's, I just haven't found a way to make them work live without spending far too much time tweaking. The Aura, although an older product now, is still the only IR style pedal that I feel confident describing as "Plug and Play."

With that said, I do like how you described the VP as a pickup enhancer. I think that's all I am after really. I am past needing the most natural/realistic tone, but I still want something that lacks a piezo tone and has some body to it.

On a side note, I know you were praising the Amulet for a while but it wasn't included in your list above of pickups that you use. Are you liking it still? I for one struggled with that pickup. Always had a piezo tone to it and was thin sounding.

[gfirob]

These conversations seem to always devolve into questions of how many angels can dance on the head of pin. There is a kind of audio enhancement nut who can never be satisfied, who continually fusses with one element in the signal chain or other, buying the newest gadget, discarding it for the next newest gadget and so forth.

And there are a lot of us like that. I have been a fairly long time user of the Tonedexter and I have wave maps for all five of my guitars. I use it while playing out and I use it while practicing because I like the way it sounds and I like having a mike-like sound without microphone issues. It is not perfect at the molecular level, but it is better than anything else I have tried. Mike placement is something that has to be fussed with whenever you use a mike, it is not unique to Tonedexter.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it…

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I find the same thing. I love the concept of IR's, I just haven't found a way to make them work live without spending far too much time tweaking. The Aura, although an older product now, is still the only IR style pedal that I feel confident describing as "Plug and Play."

With that said, I do like how you described the VP as a pickup enhancer. I think that's all I am after really. I am past needing the most natural/realistic tone, but I still want something that lacks a piezo tone and has some body to it.

On a side note, I know you were praising the Amulet for a while but it wasn't included in your list above of pickups that you use. Are you liking it still? I for one struggled with that pickup. Always had a piezo tone to it and was thin sounding.

I like the Trance a lot that Maury's Music installed for me. I have to post a re-review of it. I wouldn't say it's any better than the Anthem but for people that like a SBT approach its excellent. I MAY be reviewing the Dazzo soon and then I MAY make a comparison video of the K&K, Trance and Dazzo. MAYBE! lol