Pickup selection narrowing down...

2bigfeet · #1 05-16-2006, 09:58 AM

Okay so I have this new custom 814 w/o a pickup. Normally when recording I use two neumanns on my Bourgeois, but I want to put a pickup system in the Taylor just for something different to have on hand and to make noise at home.

I've listened thru all the sounds on Doug Young's comparisons and like the effected sound and stereo spread of the very first demo, the 914 w/B-band core UST 99 w/mic. Only I can't find reference to a core 99 anywhere on B-bands site or for sale. The combos with the AST kinda have that ES honk so I guess I want to stay with a mic/UST combo which leads me to...

Fishman Ellipse blend. I can't find a demo of it anywhere on line and correct me if I'm wrong but it is a summed (mono) signal, no stereo out? I like the simple combined design of the Ellipse buy would prefer a stereo out.

Seems like I would have to spend quite a bit more on the B-band UST/mic/preamp system that the Ellipse gives you (sans stereo). Thoughts... and maybe steer me to the place to buy. I have a luthier already.

Thanks

sdelsolray · #2 05-16-2006, 10:25 AM

If you are planning to use the pickup system you install only at home, an internal mic will be a step backwards when compared to using one of your Neumann mics as an external mic. A lot can be said for combining an internal pickup (UST, SBT or mag) with a mic, both for recording and in an amplified setting. I don't know what your preamp situation is, but if you mic pres also have instrument inputs (some do, some don't), then you could use one preamp channel for the pickup and another preamp channel for the external mic. That would save $$, as you would be using gear you already have.

Still, if you want to hear the pickup/mic combination live, you'll need an amp and speakers of some sort. You could use your studio rig, but you would need a summing buss somewhere in the signal chain. Or you could get an acoustic amp.

On the other hand, an internal mic can sound great if you have separate gain and separate eq for the pickup (UST, SBT or mag) and the internal mic. Many acoustic guitar products (preamps and all-in-one amps) do this. By going this route, it would be a little easier to play in other location than your home.

Beagle1 · #3 05-16-2006, 06:45 PM

2bigfeet,

The B-Band Core 99 preamp was replaced by the A2 in their lineup...it is designed to accomodate a B-Band UST pickup and either the AST pickup or their AG-Mic internal mic. Unlike the A2.2 preamp, the A2 does not have the mono XOM circuit...it is a stereo output and you have to blend the 2 sources using an external preamp or blender.

Shoreline Music sells all the B-Band and Fishman systems...great place to do business with. Both the Ellipse/Matrix Blend and the A2/UST/AG-Mic packages are about the same price (B-Band is like $20 more).

It appears that B-Band announced some interesting new products at the Musikmesse show this year...

http://www.b-band.com/news.php#news-2006-01

Hope that helps!

2bigfeet · #4 05-16-2006, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle1

It appears that B-Band announced some interesting new products at the Musikmesse show this year...

Thanks Beagle. I did finally stumble upon the 99 becoming the A2. They mention a new A2.2M to work with the AG-Mic but nothing up on the site yet (apparently the A2.2 works with a UST & AST only). If I want the mic its the A2. Is it me or do the sound demos using the AST really accentuate finger squeaks?

Kinda like the idea of stereo out (for recording) and mono summed for just plug and play. The plot thickens.

Beagle1 · #5 05-16-2006, 08:32 PM

Yes, it would be nice if B-Band would put out a little more info on these new products...

I think you should check out the K&K Trinity System...it has their Pure bridgeplate transducer plus an internal mic wired to a stereo jack...no onboard electronics. You can use it either mono (just the pickup) or stereo using a blender. Check out the samples on Doug Young's site and also K&K's site. I have a Trinity installed in my Martin OM-18 Laurence Juber and I think it sounds great.

Good luck!

2bigfeet · #6 05-17-2006, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle1

I think you should check out the K&K Trinity System...it has their Pure bridgeplate transducer plus an internal mic wired to a stereo jack...no onboard electronics. You can use it either mono (just the pickup) or stereo using a blender.

It does sound a bit more pure, especially strumming. Like B-band, systems are all over the map. I can't seem to zero in on just> mic, PU, preamp system. Do you have to buy these as separates? I see three pickups, mini pickups, four pickups, trinity w/o pickups...? Which trinity system is it your using? Or I guess more to the point which one best fits a Taylor bridge plate?

CitizenAudio · #7 05-17-2006, 08:04 AM

Shoreline has a nice chart so you can weigh the pros and cons of each kind of pickup/brand.

http://www.shorelinemusic.com/faq/whatpickup.shtml

Good luck!

500th POST!

Beagle1 · #8 05-17-2006, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2bigfeet

It does sound a bit more pure, especially strumming. Like B-band, systems are all over the map. I can't seem to zero in on just> mic, PU, preamp system. Do you have to buy these as separates? I see three pickups, mini pickups, four pickups, trinity w/o pickups...? Which trinity system is it your using? Or I guess more to the point which one best fits a Taylor bridge plate?

Yes, K&K gives you lots of options...I found it confusing at first. I have this one:

http://www.kksound.com/trinitywestern.html

In most cases now, they recommend you get the Trinity with the Pure "Mini" transducer, not the "Standard" size...they recommend "Standard" if you want to have the option to easily remove the pickup. The Pure "Mini" is meant to be glued on to the bridgeplate permanently...it can still be removed, but just not as easily. The glued on installation sounds much better IMO.

The Trinity comes with their "belt-clip" mini preamp/blender. It's not bad, but I think there are better preamps out there...especially their Quantum preamp. If you want to use another preamp, you can save a few bucks by going with the Trinity "Solo" system which just leaves out the belt-clip preamp.

If you decide to go with K&K, it might be best to find a luthier who has experience installing them. I was originally going to have some other system installed in my Martin, but the guy I took it to does a lot of K&K installations...he said he had never had anyone come back and say they didn't like the Trinity. I was a little hesistant about it, but I went ahead with it and I am glad I did...I'm really happy with how the system sounds.

Hope that helps!

2bigfeet · #9 05-19-2006, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Pickup selection narrowing down...

...well not so much anymore. Since I sat down to make up my mind so I can order something, I've become overwhelmed with the choices, especially once you toss PUTW into the fray. I keep coming back to the Trinity system become of the sound demos I've heard sound good both fingerstyle and strumming. I've just discovered PUTW's stereo #54 w/power blender as played by Lumpy (first mp3) that sounds stunning as well. I also like the clean simpicity of the Highlander IP2 w/mic (though the Highlander has a bit of that nasally under saddle sound).

I think I'm staying away from any onboard preamp as I want to be able to keep my options open for having a stereo signal out for recording. Am I correct in thinking I can plug any of these signals direct into a Digi 002r w/o the preamp or will I need to preamp the signals first? If so, I would need some sort of preamp that will either combine or keep the signals split.

Thanks to all for your help and links so far.

sdelsolray · #10 05-19-2006, 06:34 PM

The PUTW stuff is pretty good. Less popular than the K&K, but that doesn't mean jack.

I have what I think is the finest sounding pickup config I've ever heard. But that doesn't mean jack either, if for no other reason that I cobbled it together for myself, for my chops and styles, through my signal chain. If you played my rig, your ears may not like it as much as mine do.

Still, you can predict to some extent how a pickup config will sound, generally, if you are familiar with the 4 basic types of pickups and how they sound (they all sound different). From these 4 basic types you can next get into the nuances of different brands of a particular pickup type. For example, the differences between a UST and SBT are pretty obvious. The differences between a K&K SBT and PUTW SBT is less so.

Also, the remainder of your signal chain will actually effect your sound more than the pickup config choice. So it's not a bad idea to design your entire system instead of just focusing on the pickup.

2bigfeet · #11 05-19-2006, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

...Still, you can predict to some extent how a pickup config will sound, generally, if you are familiar with the 4 basic types of pickups and how they sound (they all sound different). From these 4 basic types you can next get into the nuances of different brands of a particular pickup type. For example, the differences between a UST and SBT are pretty obvious. The differences between a K&K SBT and PUTW SBT is less so.

I know, you can go in circles with all the choices. I've made up my mind... K&K Trinity with the preamp. I read the manual... you can have a mixed signal out as well as independent outs, just what I wanted. I'll order it up Monday from Shoreline I'm guessing, or whoever has it in stock. I'm surprised Elderly or FQMS doesn't carry these.

Johnny5 · #12 05-20-2006, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

The PUTW stuff is pretty good. Less popular than the K&K, but that doesn't mean jack.

I have what I think is the finest sounding pickup config I've ever heard. But that doesn't mean jack either, if for no other reason that I cobbled it together for myself, for my chops and styles, through my signal chain. If you played my rig, your ears may not like it as much as mine do.

Still, you can predict to some extent how a pickup config will sound, generally, if you are familiar with the 4 basic types of pickups and how they sound (they all sound different). From these 4 basic types you can next get into the nuances of different brands of a particular pickup type. For example, the differences between a UST and SBT are pretty obvious. The differences between a K&K SBT and PUTW SBT is less so.

Also, the remainder of your signal chain will actually effect your sound more than the pickup config choice. So it's not a bad idea to design your entire system instead of just focusing on the pickup.

These were what I narrowed down to... I really like both alot. I went with the K&K mini because I have a local dealer who sells and installs them... so I figured for the next guitar I will do the PUTW #54. Then again... I like the K&K so much I may do the Trinity. Well... at least I've narrowed it to only 2... LOL!

sdelsolray · #13 05-20-2006, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2bigfeet

I know, you can go in circles with all the choices. I've made up my mind... K&K Trinity with the preamp. I read the manual... you can have a mixed signal out as well as independent outs, just what I wanted. I'll order it up Monday from Shoreline I'm guessing, or whoever has it in stock. I'm surprised Elderly or FQMS doesn't carry these.

I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but the basic $100 to $150 acoustic guitar preamps (K&K, Baggs PARI DI, PUTW) may hurt more than they will help. Have you considered a better preamp, such as the K&K Quantum or the D-TAR Solistice? Dunno what the rest of your signal chain will be (acoustic amp? PA?). However, if you're going to use an internal mic, you absolutely must have separate eq for each channel before blending. Must.

One more thing, if you go with the K&K Trinity without the preamp (that package is avaialble from K&K), consider one more idea. Get a Joe Mills internal mic instead of the K&K one. The Joe Mills internal mic is a better mic.