Syncing multiple players on a video conference

[Quickstep192]

My co-workers have been having virtual happy hours over a video conferencing bridge. I’m hoping to talk another guy into playing a tune with me on the next one, but I’m wondering how we can get our playing synchronized knowing that video conferencing has inherent delay.

Does anyone have experience they can share?

[tgaume]

Latency is a killer to this idea.

Only way I can think of is to daisy chain. Basically you & I connect on one device, I in turn either broadcast the output of the 1st device along with myself on top of it using a 2nd device, or conference on with the next guy.

By the time you add a 4th the 1st guy playing may be as much as a second ahead of the 4th guy in real time, but by daisy chaining the connections you've compensated for that delay. You'll need to do some testing in order to set the levels.

Easier just to do a guitar pull. If you want to play along just mute your mic.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by tgaume

Latency is a killer to this idea.

Only way I can think of is to daisy chain. Basically you & I connect on one device, I in turn either broadcast the output of the 1st device along with myself on top of it using a 2nd device, or conference on with the next guy.

By the time you add a 4th the 1st guy playing may be as much as a second ahead of the 4th guy in real time, but by daisy chaining the connections you've compensated for that delay. You'll need to do some testing in order to set the levels.

Easier just to do a guitar pull. If you want to play along just mute your mic.

I tried this idea yesterday, using OBS, which lets you pull from mutiple video sources. So one source was a screen capture of someone else's video, another was me live, each in a box split-screen. That worked.I suppose I could stream to another person who could do the same. But I heard the first person, but they couldn't hear me, of course.

[stephenT]

I was asked to check out some possible solutions to on line jamming for some distant friends. I'll copy and paste some preliminary findings.
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Latency is the biggest issue besides the hardware.

Looks like computer based w/ an ethernet cable is best, but there are daw interfaces for iPads. further research is needed to find out what compatible w/ whatever web site or app is chosen.

Most approaches require headphones, a daw interface and a method of getting your sound into the daw interface. Microphone, guitar/bass/keys etc and cable.
Free course on on line jamming and some ideas here:

https://www.kadenze.com/courses/onli...hnology-x/info

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/on...ices-possible/

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https://www.cockos.com/ninjam/

NINJAM is not “real time” it’s an “additive” process. One person records and the next person records and on and on. Not a true real time jam site. Requires an DAW interface and Reaper,... "REAPER is a Digital Audio Workstation for Windows, OS X and Linux” it’s $60 for an individual user. If someone is looking to record themselves, make songs, add parts, etc. it’s a low cost entry into DAWs. By contrast the software i use is Logic Pro X at $200 and a real bargain. It’s a grown up “GarageBand”,.. sort of.


https://jammr.net

Jammr looks interesting and appears to not require a DAW interface, just a way to plug your electric or acoustic instrument w/ pickups or mic into a computer. Not sure if you can use more than one source at a time. It’s in beta stage (early development) and the premium software appears to be free at this point. They also say that due to the unique nature of the software that latency is not an issue (!?!). For it’s apparent simplicity, Jammr is worth investigating.

There’s a facebook page that may offer greater insight into it’s viability. https://www.facebook.com/jammrmusic

http://www.sofasession.com

SofaSession also looks promising, appears to not necessarily need DAW interface (but for really time jamming it does look like one is needed),.. here’s their “requirements” from the site. It appears to be browser based.

Technical requirements: Computer with internet. Valid account on sofasession (free). Installed browser software (free). Connect your instrument or microphone & get started immediately. Learn how to get started here.

Here’s their FAQ page. https://support.sofasession.com/hc/en-us most of the info for real time jamming is here.

https://www.jamkazam.com

Sure looks slick at first glance, but try to get into the site further and there are so many broken/incomplete links,.. I don’t think it ready for prime time. But the idea and software looks cool. I have my doubts on it’s viability tho.

My take on viability for the group as a whole,... All of these approaches have possible technical stumbling blocks from router settings to mic and instrument interfaces to software, browser choice, internet connectivity, etc. etc. Just my take. I haven’t downloaded any of the software, I’m very picky about what I install so unless/until one system seems to excite the group, I’m personally hesitant to install something I may not use.

[Doug Young]

I spent a lot of time exploring jamkazam yesterday. I first tried it 5 years ago - still had an initial project showing up... It didn't work then, and it seems more broken now. From what I gather, it never really took off, and has a skeleton crew (1 engineer?) trying to maintain it. They've been flooded with people trying it the last few weeks and there have been a few new releases trying to fix bugs. The server keeps crashing. But it's possible that with the current motivation they'll get it to start working. Worth keeping an eye on, as the demos are impressive (seemingly impossible).

[stephenT]

I thought jammr looked like a possibility, I didn't spend any time on the facebook page, but it may lead to some clues about current users, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/jammrmusic
https://jammr.net

[Doug Young]

I just spent 2 minutes checking out jammr. A bit amusing. It's a GNU license, and the user interface is decidedly 1980s computer shell. You set the metronome tempo by typing:

!vote bmp 128

Cute. I remember those days. It asked me for my audio setup, but I see no way to actually record anything. There were some active jams listed, and I clicked them, got nothing but an empty window.

My impression is that it's some Unix programmer's prototype in early stages...

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I just spent 2 minutes checking out jammr. A bit amusing. It's a GNU license, and the user interface is decidedly 1980s computer shell. You set the metronome tempo by typing:

!vote bmp 128

Cute. I remember those days. It asked me for my audio setup, but I see no way to actually record anything. There were some active jams listed, and I clicked them, got nothing but an empty window.

My impression is that it's some Unix programmer's prototype in early stages...

Hi Doug

Check out this YouTube video. It discusses possibility for audio collaboration with low latency via internet. It's targeted at a different purpose (related to studio mastering as opposed to jamming online).

Remote audio collaboration IS possible - in real-time, and with high quality-CliCk

It is focused on audio not video, but found it pretty interesting. I'm interested in your feedback.

[stephenT]

Yeah, I spent a few minutes on their Facebook page tonight and there's nothing. Most of the posts from the creators are years old. Lot's of "this doesn't work" and "is anyone there?" in the "Community" section. Looks dead in the water.

I spent a lot of time exploring jamkazam yesterday.

All i get is a slick web site , a few good videos, an admittedly great looking interface to the app and as I mentioned dead links and spinning balls. Click on their branded DAW interface they are shilling and nothing. Sad. Sad.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I just spent 2 minutes checking out jammr. A bit amusing. It's a GNU license, and the user interface is decidedly 1980s computer shell. You set the metronome tempo by typing:

!vote bmp 128

Cute. I remember those days. It asked me for my audio setup, but I see no way to actually record anything. There were some active jams listed, and I clicked them, got nothing but an empty window.

My impression is that it's some Unix programmer's prototype in early stages...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Doug

Check out this YouTube video. It discusses possibility for audio collaboration with low latency via internet. It's targeted at a different purpose (related to studio mastering as opposed to jamming online).

Remote audio collaboration IS possible - in real-time, and with high quality-CliCk

It is focused on audio not video, but found it pretty interesting. I'm interested in your feedback.

Thanks, Larry I'll check it out. AudioMovers... Another piece of software to try.

I wouldn't say online collaboration is impossible, just challenging unless all conditions are right. If we have, say 100ms latency between our computers via the internet, then I play, you hear me 100ms later, you respond, and I hear you back an additional 100ms, so we're off by 200ms. Is that OK?, might be, tho it may get a little disconcerting. Many people have greater latencies than that. But the internet is getting better all the time. If we both have high speed internet, and happen to have the right path between us (something we don't typically control), then it might work. We're not on dial-up anymore :-) most of us anyway, and as we all get on high speed fiber, it may get closer to things working better. There are also issues with some software. Not sure if Skype still does, but it used to use a token-ring approach, where basically, if one person was making sound, the other person was cut off. So if you were playing, my mic was effectively off. Since this happens very quickly, you just get kind of a stuttering, breaking up effect.

In my last day job, one of the things I was involved in was networking for large computer company. One fascinating little issue was when we wanted to post ads to Google's ad system. The way it works is that someone gets a page view. They call google's ad server while the page is rendering. Google calls us and says "do you want to bid on an ad?" We have to figure out if we have an ad relevant to some keyword, and return the bid and an ad". The entire exchange has to happen in less than 100ms, round trip, or we simply lose the bid. Getting that to happen involved multiple 100 Million $ data centers being built, contracts for direct access to transatlantic cables, on and on. Tons of engineers and tons of money to shave off a few milliseconds, counting where every single millisecond went, and trying to reduce it. You and I can't do that, so it sort of depends on whether our internet providers have done that for us. For most home use, we don't have those stringent requirements and a few hundred milliseconds of latency is no big deal for browsing the web, or even one-way streaming of video.

The JamKazam guys have some amazing demos, but they do say it works for people within 500 miles of each other (a rough proxy for the networking latency - not guaranteed, but a rule of thumb) and they also do a bunch of measurements to show you if your connection is likely to work.

Anyway, thank for the pointer to AudioMovers, on my list of stuff to try! If I can get it working, maybe I can hit you up for a trial collaboration?

[PHJim]

Not a perfect solution. . .far from it, but we had one person lead and everyone else mute. When it came time for the solo, the person leading would play rhythm and let the other players solo. Of course the only person who can hear their solo and fill licks is the person playing them, but it's good for practising and learning songs. Everyone is taking a solo at the same time, but since we're allmuted, it doesn't really matter.

On our normal Sunday night jams, we just go around the circle with each person choosing a song and giving the other players a solo. We try to bring at least one new song each week. If the changes are complicated, a chord sheet might be provided printed big enough for all to see. I can't wait to get back to that. Zoom is OK for talking, but not for jamming.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Doug

Check out this YouTube video. It discusses possibility for audio collaboration with low latency via internet.

Ah, watched the video. Yes, I've heard of people doing this. I think a number of professional studios offer this kind of remote observation of mixing/mastering sessions. Certainly one kind of collaboration, tho not what musicians are currently asking for to play together. But it's nice to know there's an plugin available, that if I was mixing someone's stuff, they could watch. It'd also be cool for live recording demos, like someone here asking "how do you do this in Logic, or whatever". You could bring it up, connect them and do an in-person remote demo. The thing about using Zoom to hand over control to the other person is scary - that's what some of the current security concerns with Zoom are about, but it is what many companies offer with customer support.

There are all kinds of interesting ways to connect. Phil Keaggy at least used to have a gizmo that worked with 2 phone lines. Phone lines have a really narrow bandwidth, but this gizmo would split up the sound somehow, send each half over each of two phones, and then you had the same gizmo at the other end that would put it back together, sort of like a cross-over circuit. He was able to send audio at relatively high quality that way, apparently, over a phone.

[JBCROTTY]

I organized an Online Acoustic Open Mic - we use Zoom. Zoom will not allow two people to play simultaneously - it isn't designed to support that audio load.

What we do is mute everyone on the session except for the person who's turn it is to play. That person plays - even this approach is not ideal - the guitar is distorted somewhat, especially if the person is signing. Then the host un-mutes everyone, we discuss, and the next person is up, everyone goes on mute again, they play, rinse repeat. We drink while doing this. It is super fun.

Its not designed to be a pro setup or an online jam session - it works for a group of hacks who are just trying to build up the confidence to do a live open mic when that is possible again. I performed my first cover tune with an audience of actual humans (normally only my dog is in attendance). I nailed it. Mission accomplished.

[jricc]

Originally Posted by JBCROTTY

I organized an Online Acoustic Open Mic - we use Zoom. Zoom will not allow two people to play simultaneously - it isn't designed to support that audio load.

What we do is mute everyone on the session except for the person who's turn it is to play. That person plays - even this approach is not ideal - the guitar is distorted somewhat, especially if the person is signing. Then the host un-mutes everyone, we discuss, and the next person is up, everyone goes on mute again, they play, rinse repeat. We drink while doing this. It is super fun.

Its not designed to be a pro setup or an online jam session - it works for a group of hacks who are just trying to build up the confidence to do a live open mic when that is possible again. I performed my first cover tune with an audience of actual humans (normally only my dog is in attendance). I nailed it. Mission accomplished.

THIS! Yes not ideal, but in my Zoom guitar/uke lessons, I have my students mute and they can hear me and that keeps us in sync, I can't really hear them when we are playing but I will go around have them play by themselves so I can help them.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

…If we have, say 100ms latency between our computers via the internet, then I play, you hear me 100ms later, you respond, and I hear you back an additional 100ms, so we're off by 200ms. Is that OK?, might be, tho it may get a little disconcerting.

Hi Doug

I worked with those amounts of latency 15 years ago when digital recording had just begun. Learned to lean-into or lag-behind enough that it felt 'normal'. These days those numbers sound pretty staggering!